The line between raiding and griefing is razor thin like a silk cord. Many a player has used that excuse to justify camping outside a spot for days on end killing every player they come across until it drives them from the game.

It isn't raiding if the two kingdoms are not at war. It is simply banditry, murder, and to the extent they impact other players can rise to the level of griefing.

You can debate both sides until the cows come home. If the end result causes players to leave the game because the developers system for restraining such behavior fails, then it doesn't matter what you choose to call it.

Be careful what you suggest to people my friend. I caution you not to suggest that people shouldn't play the game over a difference of opinion. You will only hurt the long term prospects of the game by doing so.

CoE isn't a pvp game. It isn't a PVE game. It is an everything game. The developers are striving for a balance of all gameplay types. I've merely suggested that their mechanisms for achieving that balance may be insufficient to the task.

One more thing. Before anyone makes any assumptions about who I am or what my gameplay style is, I am a pvper at heart. I've played nearly every pvp sandbox game that has been made. I was a murderer and a thief in Ultima online.

However, even I can recognize that games cannot survive without appropriate counter measures so that the criminal aspect of gameplay cannot overwhelm those who choose to play more honestly.

If you want to use references to livestock and wolves so be it. If the criminals and pvpers manage to chase away the more numerous and productive members of society, this game will not survive.

There must be balance and it must be constructed with the most inventive and dedicated of trolls in mind. The developers should constantly ask themselves " what could cause this mechanic or plan to fail".

Most assuredly, all potential criminals will be asking themselves " how can I work around this mechanic to avoid the most serious punishments"

If someone is camping in one spot and raiding a village, then it should be fairly easy for one of the Sheriffs of the Duchy to find them and raid them back.

If you have raiders on you, then you need to send some raiders of your own against them. If you don't have any, then hire some. This isn't going to be some Level 60 gank squad against the level 1 noobs game, there aren't levels.

Posted By Harbonah at 10:28 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

The line between raiding and griefing is razor thin like a silk cord. Many a player has used that excuse to justify camping outside a spot for days on end killing every player they come across until it drives them from the game.

Griefing is any action, violent or non-violent, done for the express purpose of making another player unhappy. Riding into another county to find a fight, or steal resources, or sabotaging another factions capacity for warfare are all legitimate reasons for banditry and murder. Violence does not become griefing until it becomes clear there is no other goal but causing the player unhappiness.

Posted By Harbonah at 10:28 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

It isn't raiding if the two kingdoms are not at war. It is simply banditry, murder, and to the extent they impact other players can rise to the level of griefing.

Yes, it is still raiding. Banditry and murder occur on raids. No one wants to lose things -- it makes us all unhappy -- but that does not mean a raider takes things from you because he wants to inflict emotional distress.

Raiding and banditry are not griefing, they are forms of predation.

Lions do not hunt antelope because they hate antelope and want to make them suffer.

Posted By Harbonah at 10:28 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

You can debate both sides until the cows come home. If the end result causes players to leave the game because the developers system for restraining such behavior fails, then it doesn't matter what you choose to call it.

The balance of risk vs reward and predation vs preservation are scales that have many factors balancing on both sides, and is not exclusive to griefing.

Posted By Harbonah at 10:28 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

Be careful what you suggest to people my friend. I caution you not to suggest that people shouldn't play the game over a difference of opinion. You will only hurt the long term prospects of the game by doing so.

You've ostensibly been here over 2 years. How you have not been able to realize the freedom for violence in this game is beyond me. If i did not point out this freedom for violence and loss to someone who conflates banditry with griefing, it would feel irresponsible of me.

Posted By Harbonah at 10:28 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

CoE isn't a pvp game. It isn't a PVE game. It is an everything game. The developers are striving for a balance of all gameplay types. I've merely suggested that their mechanisms for achieving that balance may be insufficient to the task.

We are not even in pre-alpha. Claiming that their measures are not sufficient for balancing at this point is baseless.

The only way i see a count backing griefers is on kingdom borders. They will get swarmed and casus bellied(sp?) if they are acting within a duchy against a fellow duchy settlement. Now, cross kingdom borders are different and could just be trying to incite a war, which in fact it may just do that. In any case, everyone is going to be looking for a reason to take someone else's land. And the bandits just gave them a perfect reason to. Play stupid games, get stupid rewards.

In order for your logic to be sound, you would have to argue that the individuals being preyed on enjoy being killed and stripped of their valuables.

Murder and theft outside of warfare are generally for the pleasure of the murderer and at the discomfort of the victim . To argue otherwise would be rather difficult. Nobody tending their farm wakes up in the morning and says " gee I hope I get robbed and murdered today, wouldn't that be exciting".

Like I said several times. It would be a mistake to assume that soul loss and shunning is enough of a punishment to deter people from being excessive about it.

Your are right though. It is pre alpha. That is exactly the time to wonder how many different ways the players can beat your system. The further you go into development, the harder it is to fix problems later on.

You dont agree with me, that is fine. This is merely a conversation.

Posted By Harbonah at 11:51 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

In order for your logic to be sound, you would have to argue that the individuals being preyed on enjoy being killed and stripped of their valuables.

Murder and theft outside of warfare are generally for the pleasure of the murderer and at the discomfort of the victim . To argue otherwise would be rather difficult. Nobody tending their farm wakes up in the morning and says " gee I hope I get robbed and murdered today, wouldn't that be exciting".

You are strawmanning pretty hard here. I have never argued it is fun to lose things. In fact, if you had read my post, I explicitly said the opposite:

Posted By Vucar at 11:13 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

>No one wants to lose things -- it makes us all unhappy -- but that does not mean a raider takes things from you because he wants to inflict emotional distress.

Just like no one enjoys dying in FPS games - people are not griefing each other whenever they score a kill for their team in a shooter. I don't know how many more times I have to say this before you understand it but I put it in bold this time to help.

Posted By Harbonah at 11:51 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

Like I said several times. It would be a mistake to assume that soul loss and shunning is enough of a punishment to deter people from being excessive about it.

Again, because you conflate apparently all murder and violence with griefing, you fail to understand this point.

I don't need to kill you to grief you. I don't even have to hurt you or steal from you.

In fact, the most effective griefing has no obvious retaliation.

-I could start 50 campfires outside your house to kill the FPS inside, and make your home unplayable until they go out.

-I could leave a bunch of cheapo expendable mounts and stuff them in places that slow down traffic

-I could follow you around, closing open doors in front of you, and getting in your way without actually touching you.

This is all just off the top of my head and none of these are are obviously illegal from what we know.

Unrelated to griefing, stopping crime has to do with cutting off its source, which is much easier to do than stopping a griefer.

You can re-iterate the point all you want. I'm not obligated to agree with you. Your disagreeing with me does not make me inherently wrong.

I'm not conflating anything with anything. It is spelled out in their own FAQ post.

"Actually, more or less. In Chronicles of Elyria, crimes such as attacking other characters is punishable with a shorter lifespan. So, we've removed most the incentive around griefing."

The developers are the ones who associate the idea of attacking other characters as a form of griefing. I am simply following their logic.

In their own words attacking another player = a crime. It requires punishment, and in their own words removes the incentive to commit grief as defined by them as attacking other players or committing other crimes.

If you don't like their definition, I suggest you take it up with them and ask them to modify the language in the FAQ.