strawpoll may have been a better method you put the PS there but it's still gonna happen

As asked of me I have brought my suggestions from discord to the forums, and added it to this thread since this is a pertinent place for these types of suggestions.

Suggestions:

1. Never give an external date until a deliverable has made it through the QA process.

2. Stand up a QA process that does not utilize the same people who wrote the code to test the code.

3. Stand up a further QA process utilizing trusted members of the community to test the deliverable from a gamer mentality (IE show you how we will break it)

4. External dates should include a period of time where the deliverable is staged, completed QA, completed bug fix, and simply needs the switch flipped to make it live before it actually going live (you literally can not miss that date now! unless something completely wonky hits you like a freight train)

5. Start coming up with better ideas for hype generation, and specifically ideas that are going to increase customer trust that has be lost through the long list of failed deliverables.

6. Never say "We didnt say that, I will need to see proof!" We will prove you wrong like we do every time. Simply say "We were designing that way but we changed directions because of x y z and this is better for the game at large in our opinions because of a b c." That is much more palatable.

7. Do not under any circumstances treat any form of public communication medium as a place where you can just bull shit as a member of the studio. Regardless of your intents it will be taken out of context and it will cause people to build opinions of you and the studio period. There is a reason Elon can no longer chair a publicly owned company and that reason sits with his public communication on twitter, a place I bet he wishes he can just bullshit.

8. oh also, love yourselves. Quit subjecting yourselves to this type of stuff that would be completely avoidable by implementing very simple fixes to your interactions with your audience. Thats not loving yourself, thats torturing yourselves and its going to end up killing all of your motivation just as much as it kills ours. The community isnt to blame for this type of thing, this is literally the studio stepping on its own toes. Quit stepping on your toes and learn to walk gracefully. We will all be the better for it.

I don't think the work necessarily has to be done and tested. I do think that deadlines should be set when the work is nearing completion, and that ample leeway is given in case anything goes wrong. I was pretty disappointed to learn that all of the DSS dates so far were announced before the maps were even complete.

It doesn't make any difference to me if a release is sitting on the shelf before it's given to us. It also doesn't matter if something gets pushed back a few weeks when something comes up. We were pretty understanding the first time DSS got pushed back a month. Less so the second, third, and fourth times.

I don't think the issue is binary. If for example the studio went silent ever since Adventure 0.5.0 started there would be as much salt as there is now, different but same level.

They need to keep the fans updated on what they are working and general overview of when to be delivered without cornering themselves into a box with a hard date.

Many people dislike the estimates that we were given in the State of Elyria 2017 because they were never met but I personally feel that the estimates were fine - the only problem was that they were never updated when it became obvious they were not going to be met, a reoccurring issue of SbS leaving communication of delays to the last minute or, when possible, not communicating them at all.

So what I would like is a change to the current methodology but not what the OP is suggesting: an estimated timeline of development that actually gets updated when things change (I know... mind blowing to update things when they change).

Target dates are important. It gives people something to look forward to. The problem isn't sbs but our expectations. ANYTIME a date is set you have to realize that is sbs "best guess" not set in stone.

The only issue this time was that they waited too long to pull the trigger on the delay. So all weekend the kids got cranky and then the hammer dropped very last minute and then a meltdown followed. But this certainly isn't anything new or even unique to sbs, this happens to the big multi-million dollar studious as well.

Posted By DracoKalen at 12:42 PM - Mon May 06 2019

Target dates are important. It gives people something to look forward to. The problem isn't sbs but our expectations. ANYTIME a date is set you have to realize that is sbs "best guess" not set in stone.

The only issue this time was that they waited too long to pull the trigger on the delay. So all weekend the kids got cranky and then the hammer dropped very last minute and then a meltdown followed. But this certainly isn't anything new or even unique to sbs, this happens to the big multi-million dollar studious as well.

I disagree with this completely, there are plenty of other ways to generate hype and give the active community something to look forward to without setting yourself up for loss of trust, loss of confidence, and looking incompetent.

Have a designer write a DJ once a month, people will look forward to it and speculate on it often.

Have a developer stream their Friday play testing once a month. People will look forward to it and enjoy seeing actual fruit of the studio's labors.

Have the community manager run a community event once a month, not a money based event but a talent based event or a recruitment faire or offer the opportunity for someone in the community to give a community class for those interested.

Have the art director release what he is currently working on and do a live concept art session once a month.

Have the design team do a round table on something they are currently doing design on to show how the design process works and get input directly from the community into that process, because why not.

All of these things are things that are easily delivered upon, cost nothing to do, and create things for the community to look forward to. Creates things for the community to do. Creates ways for the community to rebuild faith in the studio. Etc and so forth.

As for waiting for QA to release a date. QA is not the finished product. QA is the process for finding bugs in a deliverable to be sent back for fixing. Once getting through a first round of QA you should be close enough to the deliverable to understand how long those bug fixes should take (especially as those bug fixes become part of your next development sprints) assume another round of QA, and another round of bug fixing and set a date that is achievable to get a quality product you can be proud of on a timeline you think is more than achievable.

I whole heartedly agree with everything Adam listed. I'd also like to add that maybe an update as to which stage the event project is in would also work to cull the uproar from the community and keep them on a very low simmer.

For instance, as soon as the project is ready for the QA process, let us know... Hey, we've just completed the coding of the DSS web tool, we are now sending it to Quality Assurance for them to do their thing. After which, we will have it tested for any lingering bugs or issues. Then on to the next stage to ready it for the event and so on. Maybe something along those lines.

I think it would definitely keep the community off your backs and give us some insight as to where the process is at. Along with the ideas Adam gave in regards to other ideas to keep the community engaged and calm.

In any case SBS... overall... I'm still happy to fund the project as I want to see Caspian's dream realized and recognize you all for the hard work and time you have all put into this project. We just need a few tweaks put into place to hopefully have things running a little smoother with minimal to no uproar from the community, that's all!

We all love you guys!!!!

Posted By Adam Burrfoot at 2:13 PM - Mon May 06 2019

1. Stand up a further QA process utilizing trusted members of the community to test the deliverable from a gamer mentality (IE show you how we will break it)

I agree with most of what you listed Adam, but this right here, I really can't agree with. I say this because of experience in regards to software testing. Yes, you will want someone that is looking for a way to break something, but no to the trusted members of the community part. The reason I disagree there, is because why should that matter (other than who has been here the longest to hang out and chat with SBS)?

Do these trusted members have any knowledge of software testing?

Have they ever done it (claiming beta tested xyz MMO as software testing wouldn't really fit here unless there is legitimate bug submission going on in that beta)?

Does being a trusted community member mean you know how to test if the issue you are having in caused by your hardware/software or by the software being tested (not the easiest thing to check, but understanding both hardware and software helps a lot here)?

Basically, what I am saying is, just because you are a trusted community member, does not mean you'd be the best option as a tester.

Posted By Verith at 12:59 PM - Mon May 06 2019

Posted By Adam Burrfoot at 2:13 PM - Mon May 06 2019

1. Stand up a further QA process utilizing trusted members of the community to test the deliverable from a gamer mentality (IE show you how we will break it)

I agree with most of what you listed Adam, but this right here, I really can't agree with. I say this because of experience in regards to software testing. Yes, you will want someone that is looking for a way to break something, but no to the trusted members of the community part. The reason I disagree there, is because why should that matter (other than who has been here the longest to hang out and chat with SBS)?

Do these trusted members have any knowledge of software testing?

Have they ever done it (claiming beta tested xyz MMO as software testing wouldn't really fit here unless there is legitimate bug submission going on in that beta)?

Does being a trusted community member mean you know how to test if the issue you are having in caused by your hardware/software or by the software being tested (not the easiest thing to check, but understanding both hardware and software helps a lot here)?

Basically, what I am saying is, just because you are a trusted community member, does not mean you'd be the best option as a tester.

When I say trusted I mean, trusted that they can do the job well by the studio. Vet them for experience and ability to do the job well, and utilize that free resource as a force multiplier to their process. :-) I agree completely with your statement.

Transparency doesn't need to come from dates, you can still 100% engage with your community without giving solid dates.

Do some meet the dev videos/interviews that could help boost a lacking media channel, an example of which would be something like: Crowfall: Meet Thomas Blair

This has the ability to both humanize the devs, and for the community to get a real sense of what the team is doing and who the team is. We don't have any content like that, we have write ups sure, but writeups feel so devoid of personality and authenticity compared to video content. Also finding those writeups isn't that easy or intuitive like most of the content on the site isn't easy to find.

Do more behind the scenes looks, lets see what people are working on. I don't mean in a big brother way, but show me some quick video footage of an animator working on something, or a coder, coding something, or a concept artist working on a piece. Again this is all great content that you can add to the media page that will give more viral content to get both current and outside communities more engaged.

Transparency isn't a binary thing where either we have dates and they are transparent or we don't have dates and they aren't transparent. Transparency is how you relate and engage with your community, how open, honest, engaging, and listening to your community. You can be transparent, tell people about your goals or visions of the game without giving a hard date for meeting those goals, you can show in process footage of things that you are working on without giving dates, you can acknowledge and make the community feel like their voices are heard, recognized and taken seriously without giving hard dates.

What I want is that transparency without the needless hype build up of aggressive external dates.

Posted By Cyneric at 1:03 PM - Mon May 06 2019

Transparency doesn't need to come from dates, you can still 100% engage with your community without giving solid dates.

Do some meet the dev videos/interviews that could help boost a lacking media channel, an example of which would be something like: Crowfall: Meet Thomas Blair

This has the ability to both humanize the devs, and for the community to get a real sense of what the team is doing and who the team is. We don't have any content like that, we have write ups sure, but writeups feel so devoid of personality and authenticity compared to video content. Also finding those writeups isn't that easy or intuitive like most of the content on the site isn't easy to find.

Do more behind the scenes looks, lets see what people are working on. I don't mean in a big brother way, but show me some quick video footage of an animator working on something, or a coder, coding something, or a concept artist working on a piece. Again this is all great content that you can add to the media page that will give more viral content to get both current and outside communities more engaged.

Transparency isn't a binary thing where either we have dates and they are transparent or we don't have dates and they aren't transparent. Transparency is how you relate and engage with your community, how open, honest, engaging, and listening to your community. You can be transparent, tell people about your goals or visions of the game without giving a hard date for meeting those goals, you can show in process footage of things that you are working on without giving dates, you can acknowledge and make the community feel like their voices are heard, recognized and taken seriously without giving hard dates.

What I want is that transparency without the needless hype build up of aggressive external dates.

Great ideas! Thank you for contributing constructively to the thread. My goodness I love our NA-E folks, such good and helpful members of the community for the over all success of the game and studio.

I would agree with shying away from a hard date unless the goal has already been met internally. The public at large can't handle bad news of any kind without overreacting.

Sorry, but you have to have dates. First game I followed didn't have dates and 12 months later we found out it was pure vaporware....Just hype. You can't do development from the ground up with donations and just "hype" because most of us are smart enough not to fall for that, in my case....again

Going to chime in here because I feel this is an important subject. So much so that I am typing this response on my cellphone in my clients parking lot where I am several thousand miles from home.

I have on more than one occasion felt disappointed at the seemingly inept ability for SBS staff to effectively communicate with their audience. Though I have come to determine that this is really not the fault of the individuals communicating details but the inability of SBS as an organization to properly set the expectations of its fan base.

I fully believe that the most recent domain selection snafu as it were, was an unforeseen hurdle that SBS did there best to overcome. I believe they may have felt as though they could overcome the issues and keep their timeline until zero hour where the only option was to disclose that there was an issue and therefore a delay. A more customer oriented response would have alerted those affected with a message indicating there was a unforeseen complication and that they were actively working on it. Then when zero hour hit, the impact would have been lessened.

As far as testing, I would like to say that the last thing they need are professional testers. Community members vested in the success of the title will be more reliable and more likely to provided varied scenarios to “break” and report issues. I have tested many game titles before the era of pay to play beta’s. I even have played on private test servers, logged hundreds of hours playing pre release content with developers. So much so that myself and many people I still play with have mock avatars in them as a thank you from the developers. Yet I am not a professional tester by any means. Allowing trusted community members to assist is always in the titles best interests. Yes they may have to invite an uninvite many people to find a core group that can provide the feedback needed, but if it helps them overcome obstacles and provide realistic timeframes for future “events” I am one hundred percent behind it.

I love what this title has promised. And I hope that SBS will find a way to keep their fan base engaged whilst providing realistic expectations.

Posted By DracoKalen at 2:21 PM - Mon May 06 2019

Sorry, but you have to have dates. First game I followed didn't have dates and 12 months later we found out it was pure vaporware....Just hype. You can't do development from the ground up with donations and just "hype" because most of us are smart enough not to fall for that, in my case....again

Except from what has been shown in some of the shinys we know CoE isn't vaporware.