COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Casus Beli questions
+1

Morning all, I did a quick search on casus beli and couldn't find the answers I was after so here goes.

1) If I witness someone attack another player/NPC can I wade in without breaking the law/granting casus beli to the aggressor?

2) Will killing a criminal grant casus beli to them or their family?

3) Will there be a difference between the bounties as a game mechanic against criminals and bounties we can place as players to bring people in for questioning to determine guilt or placing a reward on someone who has travelled to another kingdom to escape justice?


Duchy of Asebe'ia Thunar```

http://thunormore.org/nirath-sig-asebeia.png

4/15/2019 10:40:23 AM #1
+5

I'm not sure that those scenarios have to do with a casus beli... Casus Beli is only for title holders/wars, not for breaking the law in general...


Kernothia

4/15/2019 12:19:00 PM #2
+0

Hey, just to help you out Trog, Cassus Bellis are covered in detail in this DJ.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/6549/DJ-18-Kingdom-Land-Management


4/15/2019 4:18:15 PM #3
+1

A Casus Belli is a justification for war, it has nothing to do with crime.


Count LizenÇace VeLeîjres of OçeauBramar county, VII of the order of the IX.

Order of IX

4/15/2019 5:17:15 PM #4
+1

My bad I thought that was the term that covered any justification of retribution/violence. My question still stands though, whatever retaliation against crime is called, do we know how our ability to retaliate works?


Duchy of Asebe'ia Thunar```

http://thunormore.org/nirath-sig-asebeia.png

4/15/2019 7:12:27 PM #5
+4

I would also like to know the answer to this question. Plus I always love when a community hits someone because they misunderstood what a word meant when clearly he was looking for answers that had to do with the rest of his write up and not solely on one word.
Help the person with the actual question, you can also help them understand the out of place word too but none of you actually helped anything. A+


4/15/2019 9:20:06 PM #6
+1

I am also very interested in the answer to this.


4/15/2019 9:26:44 PM #7
+2

Posted By Ugly-Green-Trog at 10:17 AM - Mon Apr 15 2019

My bad I thought that was the term that covered any justification of retribution/violence. My question still stands though, whatever retaliation against crime is called, do we know how our ability to retaliate works?

I expect that much of that will depend on local laws. If local law allows violence under some set of circumstances (self-defense; defense of another; defense of property; "needed killin'"; etc.), then there should be no penalty for using violence. If local law doesn't allow that, then there could be. Even if "honor demands" violence -- if it is illegal, a person will have to choose between honor and the law and accept the consequences of the choice.

That said, I think we know that death during a war declared based on a proper Casus Bellum would be an inherently lawful act of violence, with no spark cost. (I may be wrong -- but I think we know that.) It is possible for a similar dynamic to be available -- through declarations of outlawry or somesuch -- as a legal punishment. This would not be a Casus Bellum, but could use the dynamic on an individual basis. That is, if a court declares a person an outlaw, it could be like a proper declaration of war on that person -- thus allowing them to be killed lawfully (at least within the geographic scope of the domain that declared them an outlaw).


Count of Arden, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland

4/15/2019 10:48:38 PM #8
+9

Posted By Ugly-Green-Trog at

Morning all, I did a quick search on casus beli and couldn't find the answers I was after so here goes.

1) If I witness someone attack another player/NPC can I wade in without breaking the law/granting casus beli to the aggressor?

2) Will killing a criminal grant casus beli to them or their family?

3) Will there be a difference between the bounties as a game mechanic against criminals and bounties we can place as players to bring people in for questioning to determine guilt or placing a reward on someone who has travelled to another kingdom to escape justice?

Some stuff regarding laws and bounties. It's more than you asked for, but I thought you might want to know:


How possible would it be to set the laws at the county or duchy lvl to have a persistent KoS order on criminals even after CDG? 25 MAY 18 D-CCR

Not very. That kind of clause couldn't be represented well by the contract system. Break what you said down, and try to write clauses for it.

"I'm going to make it so that if you see someone, you must attack them within X seconds, or become a criminal. But in order to be accused, someone has to witness you witnesses the person and not attacking them, however if you saw that person not attacking them, and you didn't attack, then you too witnessed the person and are now complicit." head explodes.

The point I'm making is, such a law wouldn't be easily writeable, nor enforceable, as anyone who would be in a position to enforce it, would automatically themselves be a criminal.

Ok I get that, what if I just wanted to "allow CDG" though. not require you to attack then?
25 MAY 18 D-CCR

Then you're not writing a law, you're removing one. That's much easier. It is possible to remove laws such as that certain behaviors are no longer "illegal."

It should theoretically be possible to make it legal to CDG someone who has been sentenced. But there would need to be an exit criteria so as to avoid griefing.

What if there was no exit though?
25 MAY 18 D-CCR

We won't allow that. You could accuse someone of a crime, get everyone to agree, sentence them, and then kill them repeatedly, costing them $$. That's against our EULA.


Since something can be a crime in one domain, but might not be a crime in the domain next to it... will bounty tokens automatically be given to the witness of a crime even if they are unaware that what transpired is a crime in the new domain they just travelled to?
3 JUL 18 D-CCR

We're still working on that, actually. But right now that's the plan.


We know that laws are made through the Contract System. But anyone can just write stuff on a piece of paper, that doesn't mean that the game will recognize those words as the law and thus institute mechanics behind it. So the question is: Once the noble has had the laws he wants written down, how does he go about getting those put into place so the game recognizes it as such so that things such as bounty tokens are automatically given when someone witnesses a crime? Does the King/Duke/Count trade the contract with the laws written on it to some Table or is it some UI? If a UI, please describe how that would function.
3 JUL 18 D-CCR

So there are actually two different questions buried in there. The first question is mostly "what counts as a contract/who can make what types of contracts?" -- the answer to that one is that the types contracts you can make depends on your status/title. Only a monarch can enact an implicit contract law for a kingdom, for example. The second question is more "how does that work?" - In general, the contract is drafted by a scribe, then it is "Executed" (Signed by the necessary parties) to be made legitimate. Once executed, a contract will endure until it's conditions are met, it expires (if it had a term), or the contract is broken. Depending on which outcome occurs, different things can happen for the contract (as defined by the clauses of the contract). The signet ring of a monarch is required in addition to a signature for kingdom level contract. At the moment there's no requirement that a contract be traded to a table, however, it is possible that we will require people to be at the related table/seat when executing the contract; that hasn't been determined yet.


If you are killed by a bounty hunter, but then are able to prove later that you had been framed by someone... what recourse will you have for the spirit (and anything else) you have lost due to bounty hunters/legal system?
25 APR 18 D-SC

There's not much you can do about that. If you're lucky though, your kingdom allows vendettas so you can at least strike back by issuing your own bounty in reprisal.

So what do you do against your own government? Can you get your spirit back or is it just.... tough luck?
25 APR 18 D-SC

Yeah, that's the sort of injustice rebellions are built on, fwiw. All you monarchs, pay attention. Don't forget about the reparations you may have to pay to wrongly convicted citizens.


Can I make it laws of those areas so that criminals aren't allowed to be bounty hunted? Like safe zones.
17 APR 18 D-CCR

That's a little trickier. Broadly, yes, but there are some practical concerns we haven't ironed out yet, so I'm loathe to officially say "of course!" or something.


Can your heirs create bounty tokens? So if you perma die can u investigate your mothers murder or something
15 APR 18 D-CCR

If they're able to determine who did it.


15 APR 18 D-CCR

Define Killed? Remember, in CoE there is being Incapacitated, being forced to Spirit Walk, and then Killed. The first two always have a witness. The latter doesn't... but then you're permadead, so it doesn't really matter does it? Well, keep in mind there's also knowing who attacked you, and knowing their identity.

15 APR 18 D-CCR

You can CDG someone without them being able to immediately create a bounty token. But that doesn't mean they won't EVER be able to.


Q1. Say you are coming back from resource gathering with some people and your group is accosted by bandits. Your group is successful in incapacitating the bandits. Can you then tie the bandits up and force them to come with you to be handed over to the local sheriff / magistrate even though you don't have a bounty token yet for them?
29 NOV 17 W-SbS

A1. Yea because they broke a law. They'd be flagged as criminals because they broke a law. Yes you can. Implicit contracts like laws, if somebody breaks one of those laws and you witness it... then to everybody who witnessed it they become violators and you basically get a free bounty token. There are no bounty tokens necessarily for law breakers, they just, anybody can do it.


5 NOV 17 D-CCR

Breaking the law and being witnesses allows anyone to respond. And NPC guards who receive news of someone being a criminal will hunt them down.

How do they [Guards] know who it is?
5 NOV 17 D-CCR

Using the information system.

I thought you actually would not be able to tell someones identity that easily.
5 NOV 17 D-CCR

There's a difference between recognizing someone, and having enough information to inquire.


This is a very old answer, so take it with a grain of salt:

With bounties and claiming them, if you leave a kingdom. Can the bounty hunters still capture and bind you to walk out back to their offending kingdom?
25 NOV 15 V-BW

That depends on whether or not the kingdom has a treaty or not, if they do not the answer is no. By that I mean an extradition treaty, if the kingdoms do not have an extradition treaty and there is a bounty token for somebody and a person makes it across the border to another kingdom, your bounty token is no-good in that other kingdom and engaging in combat with someone will flag you as a criminal.


4/15/2019 11:02:05 PM #9
+2

Thanks Protey! There are getting to be so many posts on this forum tracking some time seems a bit tough sometimes. Appreciate you as always for your forum help.


4/16/2019 9:03:00 AM #10
+1

Awesome post thanks Protey, this is exactly what I was after. Assuming this is still accurate then this is definitely something to work with.


Duchy of Asebe'ia Thunar```

http://thunormore.org/nirath-sig-asebeia.png

4/16/2019 9:28:28 AM #11
+1

Posted By Protey at 12:48 AM - Tue Apr 16 2019

That depends on whether or not the kingdom has a treaty or not, if they do not the answer is no. By that I mean an extradition treaty, if the kingdoms do not have an extradition treaty and there is a bounty token for somebody and a person makes it across the border to another kingdom, your bounty token is no-good in that other kingdom and engaging in combat with someone will flag you as a criminal.

Thanks for the quotes.

Here is the answer to a question I had in the post concerning the prisons. That would be a fascinating mechanic, the perfect tool for a Kingdom to raid its neighbours and create diplomatic tensions...

Log in to post