COMMUNITY - FORUMS - NEW PLAYER QUESTIONS
Taxes

Although this is sort of a kingdom specific question, I wanted to get a feel for what the general community thought of this (considering it's a variable that'll be set by the community)

If players are charged a tax, how high would this be? If taxes are too high in an area, people are just going to leave to a new area. You have to consider that when new players start joining and you say "Welcome to our community, oh and btw, you owe taxes", I imagine they'll be a bit put off by that. People just want to play the game and they won't want to owe money to other players just for the sake of "the king demands it" or "its for your own safety". And when a player starts out, they might just be trying the game, they dont want to owe anything in a game they just started.

Tax collecting can be a pretty tedious job if it has to be done in person. Collecting taxes also means work for the governing body. How can you get to every player if they aren't online? How can you force an OPC to pay a tax? Especially if they just spent all their money on something expensive?

So what do people imagine a tax in this game to be like to keep it fun? Will governing bodies decide to not tax to avoid the hastle? I imagine if there's no tax, there will also be more influx of players. That means people also might support you more. Will people be able to sustain infrastructure without help from the community? Will tax only be on landowners, and if so, is that something they have to check in on? That would mean every landowner would have to be accounted for if a tax was implemented. It's a lot of work if you ask me, and it's not work that I could see anyone particularly enjoying.

In a game I've been playing recently, one of the mechanics is, any trade through the in game market has a tax based on which city you're in, mostly for gold sink purposes. Is this something that can be implemented automatically also? Like a player buys something and a fee is automatically deducted to go to their town, or their duchy or whatever


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3/7/2019 7:03:36 PM #1

This was a real and serious problem historically, which I think will be replicated in COE. Free cities, both in Italy and in northern France and Germany, became prosperous largely because they negotiated low tax rates with the king and local lord -- and people moved there. On the other hand, nobles also negotiated the privilege of not paying taxes (usually as a trade off for their military service, which they also did not do -- although sometimes they had to pay a fee substitute for service) -- and that made them problematically independent of the kingdom and disloyal. Seeing how this plays out in this game, played by people with centuries of new ideas about taxation and economics, will be one of the most fascinating things to be seen in COE.


Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30605/of-contracts-and-commerce-a-tldnr-post https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/31835/on-taxes-rents-and-ancestral-lands

3/16/2019 11:20:26 PM #2

Every king (and duke, count, mayor) will have their own method of taxation.

Wise rulers will balance the taxes in such a way that they are sufficient to provide the services they need to keep their domain happy, safe and functional, and not much more (or less) than that. More taxes isn't necessarily bad if it also means more services. There are many variables.

Some players may be greedy and power hungry and charge too high taxes, but I wonder how successful they will be, probably not very.


Count LizenÇace VeLeîjres of Mydra's Crossing, VII of the order of the IX.

Order of IX

3/17/2019 12:21:06 AM #3

We don't yet know for certain what forms of taxation will be supported by the game so many of your questions just don't have answers yet, but we do know that taxes can be imposed at various levels. I don't expect there to be any sort of tax ceiling, but that doesn't mean there won't be consequences to excessive taxation. Make it too high, and people will find somewhere else to live, work and play.

It's also likely that taxes can/will be levied to pay for wars, so the financial costs of wars will be felt by N/PCs and might ultimately serve to limit conflicts. There won't be a state of perpetual warfare in that case.


3/17/2019 1:08:58 AM #4

I'd have to scare it up, but IIRC, SBS has said that if someone doesn't pay taxes, a bounty token can be generated allowing the taking of goods from the tax dodger's home up to value of the amount owed if that helps.

Personally, as mayor, I intend to set my taxes to cover the county taxes, running the city, and giving a small surplus as a rainy day fund. If possible, I intend to do it like rent. To keep your building, you need to pay x amount a year. This also counts as your taxes in part (I also intend to make a small amount of money per person for myself with this scheme as I intend to own a fair chunk of the land in town).


Expecting to set up as a mayor in one of the three "two town" counties in Bridgespider (Angelica server, Kingdom of Tyria). I'm hoping to end up with a city by the end of exposition for lawmaking ability, assuming I can keep the city sustainable. You will know it's me by the city name Raven's Roost

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3/17/2019 2:24:57 AM #5

Taxes are going to be fun in CoE. I certainly think that some of the plans I’ve seen from some kingdoms and duchies are unrealistic. For instance I certainly see no wide scale sales or income taxes being viable (if only because I’m sure none of us want to play accountancy the video game).

I see land/property tax as being the most common tax affecting the gentry, it’s fairly easy to determine and can either be assessed (what you pay is determined by the value of the land and improvements) or flat (everyone pays the same).

I also see tolls and tariffs being commonplace - especially at border settlements or settlements with large ‘constabularies’ or expensive infrastructure. Again these can be flat or assessed.

I’m unsure if scuttage will be commonplace - unless we can contractually conscript people there’s no point having an alternative.

Personally, I’m going to try and keep tax relatively simple. I’m going to calculate what I’m likely to need in the next period add 20% for the reserve/the Chip sucks at math fund and divide that among the counties sworn to me.

In my county I’m going to apply a simple flat land tax and a portion of tax on the settlements.

In my town there’ll probably be assessed property tax and a flat toll if the town is walled or has a large bridge.

I’m toying with the idea of a ‘defence tax’ where settlements are required to provide the money to equip and feed a number of soldiers depending on their pop i.e. a hamlet provides 1 a village 5 a town 10 etc - would prob require a census though so I’m ambivalent.


Coming Soon(tm)

3/17/2019 4:13:18 AM #6

Taxes should be imposed by law, which means implied contracts in COE. That will allow tax evaders to be subject to bounty and punishment.

The easiest taxes would be those that were the notable taxes in medieval England. (Regular tax systems did not generally exist before modern times. Ancient taxes were essentially legal extortion by tax farmers who paid a fee for an extrortion franchise. Most medieval courts were funded by rents and periodic taxes imposed in a fixed amount and then unevenly collected by extortion). The English taxes (first regularized to pay off the Vikings and then maintained because they were useful) were (1) a per parcel land tax (the Danegeld or “geld”), (2) a tax on moveable property (basically paid in kind where the sheriff came in and took one tenth of your stuff — but that is how you get Robin Hoods) and (3) a head tax or poll tax (fixed amount per person). Both a property tax (some fixed amount per parcel or maybe by different kind of building or use) and a head tax will probably be most common.

Tolls should also be considered. A fee to enter or leave a city gate, to cross a bridge, to use a road (checkpoints), or to set up a market stall. Tariffs (a fee based on the value of goods to be sold or transported) could also work. These were common. In fact, one of the main jobs of innkeepers was to collect fees and tariffs and sell passbooks to make travel more streamlined. I think that could be implemented in the contract system, making inns a one-stop shop for both payment and collection of fees and tariffs.


Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/30605/of-contracts-and-commerce-a-tldnr-post https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/31835/on-taxes-rents-and-ancestral-lands

3/27/2019 7:58:55 PM #7

There was no income tax in the middle ages, no direct sale taxes either.

Farmers paid taxes based on the size of the farm, the yield and the amount of livestock they had. This tax was usually paid in naturalia. People renting a farm, paid rent to the land owner, but only the land owner paid taxes to the government.

People owning a business, whether it was a crafting business or a store, paid taxes for the right to operate said business. Especially inside city limits.

Traders the moved goods into the city paid tolls on their goods, wich is the closest we get to sale taxes.

Peasants and other landless people did not pay taxes, not that most of them had much to pay with anyway.

I think that will also be the most efficient way of collecting taxes. That way new players will not have to worry about taxes before they start their own business or buy some land.


3/28/2019 1:31:22 PM #8

Posted By Dida at 7:58 PM - Wed Mar 27 2019

There was no income tax in the middle ages, no direct sale taxes either.

Somewhat true though it can be argued that the church tithes are basically a fixed income tax. Rents (i.e. what villeins paid their feudal lords) were essentially an income tax (of 33%).

There were also a lot of taxes on wealth, from the 15ths and 10ths (taxes on movable wealth) to the reliefs and heriots (inheritance and death taxes) and the tallage and carucage on land.


Coming Soon(tm)

4/17/2019 5:44:24 AM #9

The major issue for me is, how will taxes actually be collected? No one want's to be an accountant and keep track of everything. Not to mention most people if given the chance will simply not pay any tax if it's not automatically taken from them.


4/17/2019 6:19:40 AM #10

Posted By Valtar at 10:44 PM - Tue Apr 16 2019

The major issue for me is, how will taxes actually be collected? No one want's to be an accountant and keep track of everything. Not to mention most people if given the chance will simply not pay any tax if it's not automatically taken from them.

Taxes will probably be enacted as an implicit contract. Failure to pay taxes would then probably be penalized via the bounty system.


4/17/2019 6:36:36 AM #11

Do not make it so complicated, go from the bottom up. No king will collect taxes personally.

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Well, then I have to deepen it. There will be competition in almost every kingdom. The effects can be internal quarrels. One of the reasons will be envy, greed and taxes.

It will be difficult to raise the same tax. Which economic system was implemented without conflict? Wenn Sie sich an einen bestimmten Ort verpflichten, leiden Sie darunter.

You are in good hands where there is no mayor yet. In a city, the competition starts, whether you like it or not. For secretive organizations this becomes a joyful dance. If I could buy a lot of land[Jetu:Gleems/Ankrees] , I would shop in different counties.


4/23/2019 8:01:40 PM #12

I do not mind paying taxes to help improve the town, but more uprisings have started due to taxes being too high.


I have a Rocket Launcher. Your Argument is Invalid.

4/23/2019 10:16:37 PM #13

Posted By Valtar at 12:44 AM - Wed Apr 17 2019

The major issue for me is, how will taxes actually be collected? No one want's to be an accountant and keep track of everything. Not to mention most people if given the chance will simply not pay any tax if it's not automatically taken from them.

I cannot find the quote now but at one time there was a tax collection point box or whatnot near the LMT for the specific tax. Town taxes were at the town hall county taxes at the county seat Ext. Not sure if that’s still the thing.

And just FYI I am an accountant and I really don’t want a second job tracking taxes so yeah agree 100% make it simple and easy from both the paying side and tracking side.

4/23/2019 10:54:01 PM #14

Posted By Malais at 4:16 PM - Tue Apr 23 2019

Posted By Valtar at 12:44 AM - Wed Apr 17 2019

The major issue for me is, how will taxes actually be collected? No one want's to be an accountant and keep track of everything. Not to mention most people if given the chance will simply not pay any tax if it's not automatically taken from them.

I cannot find the quote now but at one time there was a tax collection point box or whatnot near the LMT for the specific tax. Town taxes were at the town hall county taxes at the county seat Ext. Not sure if that’s still the thing.

And just FYI I am an accountant and I really don’t want a second job tracking taxes so yeah agree 100% make it simple and easy from both the paying side and tracking side.

Hoping the static drop point(s) is an option. I'd rather not need to bounty hunt for tax payments.


Friend Code: 1C7762

4/23/2019 11:48:55 PM #15

So long as I have a relatively well developed settlement offering a reasonable degree of comfort and facilities, I think that a base rate equivalent to 10% of what a 'normal working family' would produce would be fair (either as gold or as resources).

For traders, especially the mobile traders, we would need to calculate a 'market' tax of their goods. Naturally the ones that could be produced locally but are shipped in should incur a greater tax to encourage local industry unless the materials are under significant demand.

In principle it would be good to direct the taxation into appropriate areas of spending, ie market taxes used to improve the market places and transport infrastructure (although that never happens in real life otherwise the roads wouldn't be full of pot holes).

Regardless of the aims, however, taxation will invariably be whatever the Dukes levy downwards plus a small margin to maintain the settlement and area around!

Collecting taxes would be easy.... there will be plenty of crooked citizens willing to collect them with the aim of skimming off the top!