Hiya folks! I know there's some of you that don't use Discord and there's been a recent rise in anticipation for some kind of news regarding the game. So, I thought it might be nice to post the info and discussions that the devs have put in the Soul Chamber channel from the official CoE Discord since the start of the year.
NOTICE - THIS IS FROM DISCORD AND NOT "OFFICIAL". THE INFORMATION IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE!
There's a lot here, so let's get going.
Posted By Serpentius on Discord
01.03.2019#Battlefields/Pitched Battles# (Thanks to SirApetus)
Caspian:RE: CDG on a battlefield, the designers and I haven't discussed battlefield combat recently, but as of the last we spoke, there wasn't any incap on a battlefield. This was to discourage people from "knocking others out" but not CDG in order to prevent the Bloodlust state.
Epicface: What's the Bloodlust state?
Caspian: Bloodlust is a buff on a battlefield that makes it so you do not suffer spirit loss for X amount of time while on a battlefield.
The only way to get the buff though is to die. :smiley:
HerbLord: So how would the spirit walking back to body be ... will it be the same? or sightly altered for battlefields?
Caspian: So after your first death on a battlefield - taking a larger than normal Spirit Loss, you spend the next X amount of time not taking spirit loss. There's still the cooldown on "waking up" but no spirit loss.
Note: Waerd do not get Bloodlust.
This is one of the most significant reasons why Waerd do not do pitched battle.
Each time they die they suffer spirit loss.
HlibSlob: But how does the system distinguish battlefield from just a 1v1 on a road?
Caspian:@ HlibSlob With the Battle Management table.
When a pitched battle occurs, the commanders can use tables to help manage and instruct the different units.
HlibSlob:So battles are like official organized events? O__o
Caspian: Yes. Pitched battles are a game mechanic which uses the Battle Management table, or just "Battle Map."
Without a table/map, it's not a pitched battle.
HerbLord: How do you access the battlemap... will it b only accessible to certain members of the army or can an opposing enemy sneak in and learn their battle strategy?
Caspian: It's a physical object. It can be viewed by spies.
Wiisdom: Will these battle management tables be in the kingdom or at the camps
Caspian: At the camps set up for the pitched battle. They've limited radius.
HerbLord: How do you see one side winning the battle since everyone can respawn indefinitely... ?
Caspian: Generally speaking, battles aren't won or lost by body count. There's generally other objectives involved. ie. If you're sieging a settlement, it's won by your ability to successfully siege it (Capture the Flag)
If it's a joint pitched battle, it's generally who can get past the defenses and kill the other commander first (Kill the Commander).
If it's a struggle over a resource location, it's generally won by being there long enough to claim the resource (King of the Hill).
At some point, enough people will have suffered losses to a degree where they don't want to, or can't continue any longer. And then whatever the primary objective was will be completed.
Duffy de Concierge |⍲|: As long as people can respawn and fight there will be zerg and churn
Caspian: @ Duffy de Concierge |⍲| There will be. But that partially offsets the problem of scale. 100 players on a battlefield can feel like 1,000. 1,000 players would feel like 10,000. As well, there's still an increasing death timer. So whoever does poorer will eventually start to run out of bodies.
Zenko:fox:: If destruction mechanics are as billed, protracted defense is viable.
Caspian: Sieges will take hours, days, or weeks. Not minutes.
Kynlo - Vesenia County (Luna): Elyrian time, or ours?
Caspian: @ Kynlo - Vesenia County (Luna) Our time.
Bombahzet, Familiar of Zylphania: @ Caspian when you say Waerd don't get Bloodlust, does that mean even when defending?
Caspian: @ Bombahzet, Familiar of Zylphania We want the Waerd to be a good defensive tribe. So the plan at the moment is for them to get Bloodlust while defending. So if they're physically within a radius around a settlement, they get the bonus.
As a result, Waerd will generally be defensive, or raid/skirmish. But never be on a battlefield.
Caspian: The cultural penalty is "No Bloodlust." There's also "Bolstering." Waerd also do not get Bolstering on a battlefield.
Epicface: Interesting. Even when defending, or not then?
Caspian: The penalties don't apply while defending. :smiley:
HerbLord: but waerd get bolstering from all members in their settlement so thats like an inherent advantage when defending..
Caspian: ^
But they can't take it with them.
Again, they're not for pitched battles.
Epicface: Does Waerd bolstering in general apply when they're not among their own settlement?
Like can a Waerd be on the other side of the continent from their settlement-family but still be Bolstered by them?
Caspian: No. Bolstering works the same. It's just that every member of their settlement is a "family member."
01.13.2019#NPCs/AI/Death/Exposition/Culture
Nimetau Vrinssh : Kai lets be honest 90% of ai promises are probably not going to come true
Caspian : @ Nimetau Vrinssh that's a strange perspective. Do you believe we're liars or you just have an overactive imagination?
Nimetau Vrinssh : im going with the imagination as you don't seem to be liars.
Caspian : @ Nimetau Vrinssh both are valid responses and I take no offense. I was just curious.
Nimetau Vrinssh : It just seems like theres a lot there to program into an NPC is all casp. ill be happy if you get all of it done but a lot of it seems out there to me
Caspian : There is an entire area of computer science dedicated to creating artificial life and intelligent agents. If you forgo the need to have complex conversations with them, then creating realistic behavior patterns in an npc isn't hard. There isn't actually too much to it. It's very similar to what we do with screeps. For example, the NPCs have a hunger meter which goes up over time. Over some threshold and they start checking the distance to a food source over other tasks. At a higher threshold they'll even go great distances to get food. Then it's just a matter of memory and pathfinding.
Nimetau Vrinssh : So uh casp whats your take on this idea that letters still won't be used in game even with the information system since they can be intercepted?
Caspian : @ Nimetau Vrinssh I think the information system makes it so some things have to be written down or communicated in dialog. People may travel to say it in person, but there is no way around the need to communicate ingame. I think the disconnect is on what people think AI is, what they think we're aiming for, and what the AAA studios did wrong
(OCE) iSagana : @ Caspian any hints at how socially interacting with an NPC would happen? Would it be like Sims with a dialogue wheel? Would it be like some other "choose your story" games with a bunch of basic template options ("Hello", "My name is...", etc)? Or is it something different? Because A LOT of people truly believe they will be typing to NPCs and have fully fledged conversations with them in real time. Anything to help with that?
Caspian : @ (OCE) iSagana :skull_crossbones: I can say for certain that we don't have a plan to do plain-text dialog with NPCs. You're not going to be having conversations with them. When you aspire for that, people expect it to pass the Turing test or it's insufficient. I don't know yet what the team will finally decide on, but the expectation is that you'll be able to instigate conversation, or receive a request for conversation from an NPC and then use selected messages and topics in order to communicate. I don't know whether it'll be a wheel or a different UI when it's all said and done.
Kai Fernweh : I can observe you and determine your motivations and values. Making you exploitable
Sildadia : That's true to an extent Kai, but people have effectively endless options to adapt, there's only so much any system can do unless it's self learning
Caspian : @ Sildadia Ah. That's a great example. What you're referring to as "Artificial Intelligence" is actually machine learning. That's a very specific area of AI that allows a computer to change its behaviors and strategies based on learned tactics. That requires either a neural network, genetic algorithms that can evolve and change over time, or something else similarly complex. Machine learning right now sees most use in research, marketing, and other areas where the dataset is fairly straight forward. Meaning, it's easy to correlate inputs and outputs.
CoE is going to have some elements of machine learning, but not in the AI behaviors. The NPCs won't be learning from your patterns of behaviors and adjusting accordingly. When we talk about NPC AI we mean NPCs behaving in a way that is more believable. Generally that means the NPCs are more aware of their environments, take in more inputs, and are able to make more complex, informed decisions as a result.
So CoE will have more believable NPCs, and more complex NPCs, but I'm not planning "learning NPCs."
Sildadia : @ Caspian I think the difference between what people perceive as "good AI" vs "bad AI" is in how difficult it is to determine what it's primary drives are. That can be difficult to do with people, when AI drives are easy to determine they feel less "real"
Caspian : @ Sildadia I agree. Even more than that, I think when NPCs are programmed to use paths, and use pre-determined algorithms, they become less believable and more exploitable. I think one of the main differences is that while we do have routines for things, it's all driven by NPC needs and goals. That, combined with sensing the environment and responding to stimuli results in NPCs that respond fairly differently in different circumstances, lending to a feel of unpredictability.
(NA-E) Paoron Drake Ⓥ :fox::dragon: : So when one NPC is being brutally murdered next to an NPC shop owner, the shop owner won’t still be open for business? He’d run away or fight or something right?
Caspian : @ (NA-E) Paoron Drake Ⓥ :fox::dragon: For sure.
BasstT : Would NPC AI be updated consistently as time pass?
Caspian : @ Basst Absolutely. CoE has a different maintenance cycle than most games. We're not developing dungeons/raids, new quests, etc. So for us, maintenance mode (post-launch) is about developing new technologies, evolving the AI, and making the story engine capable of creating new and different story arcs
Nimetau Vrinssh : Then there are people who would find an exploit in the NPC code and not tell anyone because they want to use that at launch for in game gain :thinking:
Caspian : @ Nimetau Vrinssh That's why we've got 2,500 Alpha Testers.
There are those in that 2,500 who understand what makes a successful world and will communicate those exploits to us when discovered. Also, telemetry tells us a lot. If we see people suddenly start using a specific pattern, technique, skill, etc. we know to look deeper into why. More beta than alpha, as alpha is focused less on kicking things and hunting for bugs and more about providing feedback on the design and how fun it is.
But between the two alphas, beta, and stress testing - plus Exposition, we'll discover quite a lot.
Nimetau Vrinssh : Hey casp quick question about Expo will we be able to buy stuff with in game currencies during it or is it all EP?
Caspian : Exposition is a soft-launch. There's limited combat and siege functionality initially, but otherwise there's full game functionality.
(NA-E) Paoron Drake Ⓥ :fox::dragon: : @ Caspian who’s going to get Prelyria access? Will alpha 1 follow Prelyria or be concurrent?
Caspian : @ (NA-E) Paoron Drake Ⓥ :fox::dragon: We develop new mechanics and iterate on them in the prelyria client, and once we've verified the feature and signed off for final release, it will get migrated into the CoE client. To make this a more iterative process we've split functionality into two alpha stages.
Alpha 1 focuses on the adventurer mechanics. Alpha 2 focuses on the kingdom, land management, and domain management mechanics.
But our process is the same for both. So you'll first get access to the Alpha 1 features in our "Pre-Alpha" which uses the prelyria client. Then you'll see those features in Alpha 1. After that, you'll be back in Prelyria for Kingdoms of Elyria, testing the Alpha 2 features (which will still include the Alpha 1 features), and then you'll see those features in Alpha 2
Nimetau Vrinssh : Caspian how much EP is too much EP for gentry?
Caspian : @ Nimetau Vrinssh Uh. I don't know how to answer that. That's like asking, how much money is too much money for a teenager to have. Depending on who you ask, any more than they need for food. :smiley:
The short answer is: Our intention is that the EP that comes with your package is enough to customize your package. Anything beyond that is optional. More gives you more options, more flexibility, and allows you to play a bigger role at launch. For example, if you want to be a skill trainer, more EP can mean more exclusive or limited patterns or techniques known at launch for you to teach others. So really, there's no good min/max, it's just about what you want your starting experience to be as a creator of Elyria.
Kai Fernweh : How deep will NPC AI be able to learn? Like laws that change, or cultural changes, either over time or in different regions, if they travel
Caspian : @ Kai Fernweh#3726 See my comments above. While our NPCs will be smarter and more aware of their environment than in many other games, NPC (machine) learning is a non-goal. We're not attempting to make NPCs that learn.
NPCs have memory and their behaviors can change based on what they know. So they'll behave differently depending on who you are, your reputation, tribe, family, any organizations you're a part of., etc. NPCs will also behave differently depending on their own needs and goals, mixed with their personalities. And finally, they change their behaviors based on all of the above, modified by what's going on around them.
So in the fact that they have memory, and fairly complex decision-making, they are more 'intelligent' than the NPCS is many other games. But they still don't have the ability to re-write their algorithms and heuristics on their own. There's no neural net for NPCs, nor any kind of genetic or adaptive algorithms. So in that regards, they're only as smart as we've made them. No emergent behavior here.
Sildadia : Basically can you "train" the in game AI to register a bucket as a weapon as opposed to a tool? I won't know that for sure until I hit an innkeeper with a bucket several hundred times
Caspian : @ Sildadia You cannot train the NPCs to interpret buckets differently, but you can train them to interpret you differently. They know a bucket is a bucket. They won't fear buckets, but they may fear you, whether you're carrying a bucket or not.
Sildadia : @ Caspian So it reacts to the identity asset as opposed to a non-identity asset?
Caspian : @ Sildadia Correct. They have memory of actors and identities. Not all entities.
Sildadia : @ Caspian One more question related to identities then, is there some method of NPCs recognizing things associated with an identity as a threat from other identities, I.E. everyone that hits the npc with the bucket is from the bucket assault brigade, when a new member joins the brigade, is the NPC going to be fearful of that new member that HASN'T hit it with a bucket? More simply, does an organization have an identity to an NPC?
Caspian : @ Sildadia Organizations have an identity. As do surnames/families, settlements, domains, and tribes.
NPCs will also evaluate your appearance to determine whether they can identify your tribe or family by appearance, as well as your possible role/job/profession based on your equipment.
So, while NPCs won't fear buckets, if they see someone wearing heavy armor, they will be more fearful.
Labbe, Master Alchemist : What about something like if all the barons men always wear bright yellow colors, and you suddenly throw something on with said colors?
Will they then associate you with the barons men?
Caspian : @ Labbe, Master Alchemist No. But if you're wearing a crest of the baron's men then they will associate.
Labbe, Master Alchemist : Hmm, so if we want organized bandits we need a crest! Colors aren't good enough
Caspian : @ Labbe, Master Alchemist Not currently, no. That would allow people to too easily copy the standard colors of another group and perform misdeeds.
Priestess : Would that work in an opposite fashion IE: you wear a crest of a group know for saving npcs would they treat you better?
Caspian : @ Priestess Yes. Wearing a different crest could misrepresent you. However, creating a crest typically requires the glyph or sigil to do so. It's similar to the seal on the Monarch's ring. You generally need to have the items in your inventory necessary to accurately reproduce a crest.
Sildadia : Also with organizations having an identity the fact that you can only loot armor on permadeath (if I'm informed correctly) makes a LOT more sense to me now.
Caspian :rage: Sildadia You are correct. Armor can only be looted on permadeath.
Brudvir Stronk : that include gauntlets or just chest/legs @Caspian ?
Caspian : @ Brudvir Stronk It includes a few equipment slots, but not all of them.
* Incapacitation allows people to take anything out of your hands
* CDG allows them to take items from your backpack, pat down your body and remove some items of clothing
* Perma-death allows fully looting the body
(OCE) iSagana :skull_crossbones: : Even taking a ring sounds like a perma death requirement. Is that right? At most you could probably remove a cloak with CDG?
Caspian : The last we discussed publicly, during a CDG you could remove hands, feet, and helmet. As well as remove items from a scabbard, or a backpack, as well as pat down pockets.
So it would be possible to remove a ring during a CDG.
Caspian : Think of a CDG as "attempted murder."
Brudvir Stronk : then technically there is no murder until permadeath
Caspian : Technically, you are correct.
Brudvir Stronk : so by that standard no one can be charged with murder until they actually permakill someone
Caspian : @ Brudvir Stronk Correct. Unfortunately, attempted murder has the same penalty... so.
Brudvir Stronk : there is still a timer for being able to loot stuff correct?
Caspian : @ Brudvir Stronk You've got a limited amount of time, yes.
Caspian : Sildadia is saying if required permadeath to remove a ring, then attacking nobility would have to make each CDG permadeath. This allows us to create dramatic stories without having to always cause permadeath for influential characters.
Count Gin [Luna] : The last we discussed publicly, during a CDG you could remove hands, feet, and helmet. As well as remove items from a scabbard, or a backpack, as well as pat down pockets.
So it would be possible to remove a ring during a CDG.
So if Player (A)CDG'ed Player B) ,and player (B) still has soul time. There is a period of time where lootable items can be token out of there inventory ,but not there equipment slots? Meaning if I wear my best equipment all the time. I dont have to worry about losing it unless it's my last Soul.
Caspian : @ Count Gin [Luna] That's correct. But this isn't a game where your abilities scale with equipment. Equipment is more a function of survival, as well as identity. So "best armor" still doesn't mean much.
Count Gin [Luna] : Just carry no inventory besides food ,and water. Wear a battle raiding set ,and have all your team-mates wear raiding sets ,and pillage without losing equipment.
Durability might be an issue ,but that just depends on how it works out.
Caspian : Right. You can wear your 'best quality' equipment all the time, and either freeze to death, overheat, or be under-protected. Or, you can wear the most appropriate equipment, and be generally better-off.
Durability is definitely an issue. As is equipment type. Keep in mind that we have slashing, blunt, and piercing damage, and different armor types mitigate damage differently. So even your 'best armor' might prove entirely ineffective in a fight.
Count Gin [Luna] : Is there a durability penalty on death?
Caspian : There's a durability penalty on taking hits. The armor doesn't care whether you're unconscious or not.
Count Gin [Luna] : This is some great ,and sad news for raiders I suppose.
Caspian : I'm not sure what's great or sad about it. When you raid, you either win - and take stuff back, or you lose, and lose some (but not all) of your stuff.
If you see a knight wearing shiny armor - you're on a battlefield. Hopefully in shiny armor also.
If you see a knight in shiny armor and you're not on a battlefield, then he's a dumbass for wearing armor everywhere, as it'll negatively effect virtually all of his survival stats constantly
Count Gin [Luna] : So plate has negative effects for survival?
Caspian : @ Count Gin [Luna] Most definitely.
The equipment system uses 3 layers. Layer 1 is for managing homeostasis. Layer 2 is for protection, and layer 3 is from exposure or for combat. Each additional layer you wear impacts your survival stats more rapidly. If you're not going to be exposed to the elements, or in combat, it's punishing to be wearing armor or a full robe or cape. If you're not expecting to be in the wilds or in combat (so you're in town) it's punishing to be wearing armor, etc.
You always want to wear the right amount of equipment for your needs.
Belmont : Caspian... is putting yourself through that trouble of having the survival stats be negatively affected by constantly wearing arm or a good thing? because you can train those skills and your stamina that way cant you ?
Caspian : @ Belmont Being able to withstand the additional heat of wearing armor isn't a skill. At best it's having higher stamina, but it's not something that can be trained sufficiently as to make you immune to the circumstances. It's a design choice. We want you to have to think about whether having to stop and sleep/eat/drink more often is worth the protection you get from the added layers of clothing.
Count Gin [Luna] : There body goes into the soul area. Waiting to be logged into. To prevent multiple offline deaths.
Caspian : @ Count Gin [Luna] Huh? What's this about your body disappearing?
Count Gin [Luna] : Oh so the body doesnt dissapear on death?
Caspian : No. You are always present in the world from the moment you create your character.
Count Gin [Luna] : -Scratches head- So if the body stays ,and no one can move it can it still keep it's equipped items on then. Since equipped items cant be token off until the characters permanently dead?
Caspian : @ Count Gin [Luna] If it's permadead, it can be moved and looted.
Count Gin [Luna] : But if it was CDGEd ,and still had soul time then it cant be moved?
Caspian : @ Count Gin [Luna] That generally depends where you were CDGd. But if you're out in the wilds, then generally speaking, you can be dragged a short distance, or if you've got a bounty on you, moved toward a courthouse. Of if you've given people the ability to move your body they can throw you in a wagon and carry you away.
Belmont : Caspian, forgive me for straying from topic, but it would be nice to know how exactly bonuses/stats are handled with halflings. It would allow us to plan what we want to do with our lineage during KoE…
Like the combination of two tribes... such as a brudvir and a janoan (will we still get an in built compass, will the child have normal poison resistance etc)
Caspian : @ Belmont Oh. Tribes are made up of a set of genetic markers. Digital DNA if you will. Whenever you breed, you pick some of the genes, such as visual traits, and non-visual traits are randomly sampled. Many of the traits are numerical, in which case you'll get a range near one set of genetics or the other. In some cases it's boolean, in which case you'll either have the trait or you won't.
Count Gin [Luna] : If im in the middle of a city ,and I have not given permissions to anyone in my family or anyone in general with no bounty.
Can I not be moved?
Caspian : @ Count Gin [Luna] I believe the current plan is that if you're inside a settlement you can be moved to certain buildings in the settlement, like an infirmary.
Belmont : But regarding the movement of a body, I hope you will be able to move a character body of a player who hasnt logged in atleast to a nearby bed... if they are in the middle of the town square for example..., (and is in stasis awaiting spirit walk)
It would be cool if you can just press a button and you automatically pick them up and take them to the nearest bed... that way you cant exploit it to hurt players
Caspian : @ Belmont Great feedback. Ill talk to the designers.
Brudvir Stronk : @ Caspian the reason you can't loot them is due to the loot timer is ended and gear is locked
Caspian : A CDG body can have its inventory looted.
Timer? There is a timer to get back to your body.
Brudvir Stronk : there was stated to be a limited inventory loot timer after you are CDGd
Caspian : But a body lying on the ground has until the soul returns to loot it.
The Waerd : @ Caspian don't know if you saw earlier, (if you did sorry). Are cultural benefits (such as the Waerd settlement chat) specific to tribe and belief?
Caspian : @ The Waerd They are specific to the tribal heritage. When you have offspring, you pick what culture you want to teach the child.
The Waerd : So, even if a kypiq settlement adopted Waerd culture, they wouldn't have the benefits?
Caspian : The cultural stuff applies to all families, of all cultures. It's how you determine which cultural as well as religious benefits you want to pass to your children.