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Major Kypiq Design Flaws (and solutions)

The Major Kypiq Design Problem

Before Reading

Hi all. I would like to start by telling you that this is not a hate post, and the goal is to give a constructive review of the current state the Kypiqs are in since I plan on playing a Kypiq. From a gamer, engineer and ex video-game programmer perspective, I see several major problems with the current Kypiq design pattern that might not be visible at first sight. My goal today is to highlight those problems, the different components of the game they will affect and provide (partial) solutions that will keep the tribe's flavour. I do not want the Kypiqs to be overpowered nor I want them to be underpowered, I want them to be in a state where they are viable with or against other tribes. Finally, excuse my poor grammar or orthography as my main language is French.

My Vision of the Kypiq

Before providing solutions or highlighting flaws that the Kypiqs have, we first need to agree on the vision the community and SBS currently have of the Kypiq. I could be wrong, but this is how I see this tribe:

  • Extremely Defensive: I see the Kypiqs as being extremely strong in their homeland. Using the advantage of the Ironwood trees to navigate around and hide, Kypiqs ferociously defend their land from invaders to keep them away from their Ironwood secrets.

  • Poor Expansionist: Even though their homeland can be strongly guarded, they do not favour pitched battle and can be weak when it comes to defending open and remote lands. For these reasons and the fact that they are not initially aggressive people, they do not favour expansionism and will instead try to support their Neran neighbours when it comes to larger warfare.

  • Curious Explorers: The Kypiqs will always try to explore all corners of their homelands and neighbouring lands to feed their unending curiosity, whether it would be a Neran city or a Hrothi cavern. Finding new resources to create new inventions would probably be one of their main goal for exploring.

  • Wild Inventors: Extremely inventive, the Kypiqs will always try to make the best out of every resource. They would rather try a thousand time and reinvent an apparatus over reading about it and find a solution in their books.

  • Diplomacy First: Instead of going head first into unending wars, the Kypiqs will find a peaceful solution to their problems with other tribes. Knowing that it might cost them their longlasting homeland, they will stay at peace and keep their own part of the world secured, especially since they are not focused on expansion.

  • Nature's Friend: Following the Faedin religion, the Kypiq believe that there is a soul in each and every living being, whether it would be an animal or a plant. They live as one with nature and will always try and keep the cycle of life going forward, as most of their need is filled by the forest.


Problem 1: Woodcutting and Nature's bond

Description

Has highlighted in the latest point (Nature's friend), the Kypiqs believe that there is a soul in each and every living being. This means that even though players might be able to cut down trees when playing as a Kypiq, NPC will regard this has as evil. This point is probably the most impactful of all of the cons the Kypiqs have since they affect every aspect of their gameplay. I will highlight all the problems this creates but also several solutions (that does not include the eradication of all the trees).

Problem 1.1: Food Production

One of the small problem occasioned by the impossibility of cutting down wood and killing animals, is the extremely small food production the Kypiqs have access to. First of all, they can't hunt down animals, which makes their food supplies extremely low knowing that they live in a forest. Second of all, they can't have large fields since they are in the middle of the forest, which forces them to only live off picking small fruits. No major civilisations ever properly lived off for long period of times out of picking fruits.

Solution 1.1: Ironfruit and Metabolism

After centuries of living in the ironwood trees, the Kypiqs successfully developed an immune system capable of eating the initially poisonous Ironfruits, fruits given by the Ironwood trees usually found once they fell off the tree. Furthermore, the Kypiqs do not need to eat as often as other races due to their special metabolism, and eating off the fruits is usually enough.

Problem 1.2: Ineffective Construction

Roads have been the success and the downfall of empires for centuries. Once again, since we can’t cut down trees, roads and walls will need to navigate around the trees. Some will say that zip lines make the roads useless, but taking into account that ziplines might only be available to Kypiq and that it might be impossible to transport a large number of products on those zip lines, this is a very big deal. Furthermore, if we decide to build on the ground due to unknown reasons, building properly around the trees and such will become also extremely complex.

Solution 1.2: None

With all the pros given by the Ironwood trees, I believe that this is a problem that compensates well.

Problem 1.3: Poor Substitutes

Even though we might have substitutes for Kypiq constructions, we need to count on SBS to always find reliable substitutes for all new constructions and inventions. For example, let’s say that SBS decides to release several new inventions focused on invasions such as sieges artillery, then they also need to add alternative inventions which are built using substitutes to wood, which might be logically impossible, or at least extremely improbable. In a game such as CoE with a single server, roleplayers are mixed with hardcore PvPers. This means that when every advantage can make the difference between the victory or getting wiped, having inventions with absolutely no substitutes for wood might be the end of the Kypiqs when we factor in mass production from the NPCs.

Solution 1.3: Local Tree Ratio

By cutting old or dead trees, Kypiq can allow the circle of life in the forest to continue. Cutting sappling can still be seen as a terrible act, but there needs to be a way for Kypiqs to cut down mature to dead trees in order to allow them to still be viable in terms of warfare. Furthermore, if they invade an area where their substitutes are not found and where you can only build proper structures out of wood, they can’t thrive or even have a chance to hold their ground. How can you win a war if you can’t even hold enemy positions? Yes, you can count on Neran for those jobs, but it means that Kypiqs are extremely dependant on their relations with other tribes and are at the diplomatic mercy of their allies. A good way of balancing this would be to have major maluses locally if lands owned by Kypiqs doesn't have enough wood. Thus, even though there would be a large amount of woods, it would allow the players to user the trees but forces them to replant early if they don't want to suffer personnal maluses.


Problem 2: Architecture and the Building System

Problem 2.1: Complex system for the few

This problem is extremely straightforward. It's not necessarly a problem that can be easily solved, but a problem that the devs and players need to keep in mind. The Kypiqs have the only building system that includes 3D positioning. This means that SBS needs to build an entirely new building system for a single tribe and a small subset of the player base. So while they will be creating the game, they will need to build two systems that serve the same purposes, but one for seven different tribes and one for a single tribe. Furthermore, the Kypiq system might be even more complex due to its requirements. It will be extremely hard to build a system which is not extremely lacklustre and generic.

Solution 2.1: Lot of work and love

There’s no true solution other than a lot of work. I think the simplest way to tackle this tree construction system would probably be to have a slotted mechanics using premade blueprints for all giant ironwood. Having such a blueprint system while trying to give flexibility for design (such as rope with flags and lanterns) with the possibility to expand your home's tier by expanding it horizontally would be more than enough from my perspective.

Problem 2.2: Region Dependent System

If the Kypiq expands their territories for some reasons, their field of expertise forces them to build in trees and those trees will not be available outside of their forest. All other tribes that build their structure on the ground will be used to expanding and importing their architecture, whereas the Kypiq won't be able to. Even if they find substitutes to build their building in a foreign environment, they won't find trees to build in.

Problem 2.2: Vertical Construction

Even though this would extremely limit the flexibility of the tree construction system, allowing to instead places platforms on the trees and then build on those platforms would allow a 2D building systems (similar to the other races) but based on 3D slot-based platform system. This would mean that the actual buildings could be either placed on the ground or on platforms, which augments the flexibility and removed the tree-dependant building system.


Problem 3: Combat and viability

Problem 3.1: Open World PvP Unviable

The combat is pretty much where the Kypiqs are the weakest at the moment. Not only they don’t have the initial strength or stamina, but they are extremely limited on their reach. If you add above that the malus that SBS gave them the glass jaw problem, which reduces, even more, their viability in combat. In most open world PvP games, the encounters will generally be open world 1v1, and the Kypiq will get beaten most (if not all) the time if we have two opponents of similar skills. In this current state, the Kypiq are absolutely worthless in combat, and if other tribes can easily get access to the treehouses, there is no possible scenario where they can thrive for long.

Solution 3.1: Glass jaw removal, Stamina reduction removal & Fleeing bonuses

With all the current combat malus they already have (strength, stamina, reach), they don’t need glass-jaw on top of that. Also, I don’t see any reason why they would have reduced the stamina the Kypiqs have. With their training in trees and being used to jump around, I think they should have at least the normal. They already have a low amount of life, why reducing it even more. Moreover, giving them the ability to climb trees faster then any other race could furthermore help them escape unfavourable encounters and reinforce this homeland superiority.

Problem 3.2: Limited Equipment

Kypiqs are apparently quite limited in the range of equipment and mount they can use. So that doesn’t only mean that they can’t fight, but chances are they can’t flee properly and don’t even have access to all the weapons, which means they might miss on a few of the best weapons.

Solution 3.2: Added Specific Equipment

They have everything removed, but nothing added. Adding new weapons that only them can use can balance this lack of tools a bit. For example, small (for kypiq size) ironwood bow which would be extremely light, fire fast but with a low to medium damage could further reinforce their homeland defensive capabilities while ensuring that it is not overpowered.


Summary (TL:DR)

If it was too long for you to read and go through, I will enumerate all the points that I wish to see added and removed.

  • Add Ironfruit as a source of food;
  • Reduce food requirement to stay fed;
  • Allow for trees to be cuts but implement a local tree ratio that would inflict maluses if too many trees would be cut in Kypiq owned areas (maybe city based);
  • 2D vertical constructions on 3D slot-based platforms to allow placement of the kypiqs building on the ground;
  • Remove the glass jaw malus;
  • Remove the stamina reduction;
  • Allow for faster tree climbing due to the fact that they live in trees;
  • Add smaller specific weapons to compensate for the larger weapons they can’t use.

Even with these additions, I still feel that their inherent melee weakness will see people avoid the Kypiqs, and for good reasons. If we would be to take the tribes without any maluses or bonuses, their lack of range would still see them getting destroyed. This is why I feel the Kypiqs don’t need even more maluses and maybe need more bonuses when it comes to combat. Maybe adding some ranged weapons or long-range melee weapons mastery such as spears could help them be more viable when it comes to open world encounters.

Conclusion

To conclude, I don’t want the Kypiq to be overpowered, but I also don’t want to be wiped by an unskilled player because I can’t reach him if he has two meters over me. At the current moment, SBS doesn’t make them powerful enough for justifying them living on the continent for a long time without having been wiped already. I don’t want them to be gods, I want them to be powerful in their region, weak (but viable) outside of it and fun to play. I really hope SBS can make the Kypiqs relevant in one versus one combat and make their construction system interesting. If you agree or disagree, make sure to drop a comment and let me know how I can improve this and tell me why I’m right/wrong.

Take care!

Krieg

[EDIT 1] Redacted the small mount addition since it's already in the dev cycle apparently. Ridding Canis Rabbits sounds absolutely amazing.


1/21/2019 8:21:31 PM #31

Posted By Mybrainisanut at 7:52 PM - Mon Jan 21 2019

I think you also missed a very important point in the workmanship of the Kypiq. I can't remember when I heard about it in the last years but Kypiq do not like to use books or anything written. They communicate their knowledge by mouth. So beeing a crafter and having a book to give to your child after your character dies will be not be possible. Knowledge cannot be passed down by books this way, sadly. You need a person in between, which could be difficult. Some jobs can't even be done by Kypiqs even tho their race should be perfect for it.

Great point! I actually see this as a strength. Because our knowledge can't be physically stolen. It remains amongst the guildsmen in the crafting halls. This way the Kypiq apprenticeships and profession schools are integral to our secret knowledge.


disc: curzman#7965

2/4/2019 7:43:44 AM #32

I quite enjoyed your post. Every other tribe seems to be fairly balanced, while Kypiq has a lot of downsides and not much to recommend it. Even changing any one of the flaws you've mentioned would turn it into a playable character, in my opinion. There's just too many downsides otherwise. I want to play something challenging, not nearly impossible.


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2/18/2019 10:30:38 PM #33

How certain of this are you? I've had plans to domesticate and ride those little buggers for months now, and I would love to know that this actually is a thing!

Posted By kkillroyv2 at 9:43 PM - Sun Jan 20 2019

I'm glad someone decided to take a positive approach to some of the Kypiq's glaring weaknesses. I just gave up when thinking about the drawbacks associated with Kypiqs and moved elsewhere.

One thing to note though

Add fleeing options such as the ability to ride smaller animals;

I believe Kypiq can currently ride Canis Rabbits that aren't a viable mount for other races due to the size


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4/16/2019 7:34:48 PM #34

I don't think Kypiq are screwed at all when it comes to combat, we just won't be in the same roles and certainly SHOULDNT try to fill the same roles as some other races. Kypiq are smaller and more fragile, sure, so clearly they're better suited for skirmishing with ranged weapons. There's nothing to imply Kypiq can't retreat properly as OP stated. And in any environment with verticality Kypiq will shine since it's been said they're the best climbers bar none. Other races can't smash what they can't reach.


4/16/2019 8:24:27 PM #35

In regards to the food and infrastructure issues you brought up, they are essentially non-existent. The Faedin religion does not prohibit the Kypiq from engaging in farming practices or chopping down trees, however it does limit them and force them to play very conservatively. They are able to harvest foods and cut down trees, however, they will use as little resources as necessary to complete their tasks and sustain themselves.


4/16/2019 11:59:12 PM #36

We actually showed some concept art of a Kypiq village right around the time I joined the company. I feel like it might be work highlighting again: Kypiq Village

Kypiq don't have any trouble working wood. It's killing things without cause or due consideration they have an issue with: Everything is a life, and everything deserves life -- unless their continued existence is a threat to the lives of others.

The Kypiq do, actually, farm, though not to the extent of say, the Neran. They also build large structures. They're not just inventors they're proto-engineers capable of a degree of detail and precision that other tribes can't actually match, and that plays into many aspects of their life. This includes the way they fight; you're not going to see Kypiq trying to go toe to toe with a Brudvir, generally, but that isn't the same thing as assuming the Brudvir have a combat advantage.

In fact, every tribe is balanced against every other tribe to ensure they are equivalent - not identical, but equitably-abled, with lifestyle, technology access, and physical attributes all playing into that equation.

That said, that doesn't mean the flaws you've all pointed out don't exist! I don't want to give that impression. This is a great conversation so please don't take my comment here as me trying to stop it from happening or anything of the sort! Rather, instead, take what I'm saying as a reminder to consider what success means to the Kypiq, because that plays into your perception of the tribe. They may not seek victory or advantage in the way you imagine at all, and that might leave you looking at negatives without realizing there are corresponding positives to see, as well.

Hope that helps! :)


  • Snipehunter
4/17/2019 12:09:53 AM #37

Praise Snipehunter


4/17/2019 3:45:50 AM #38

(Redacted because I can’t remember context of source material for joke)


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4/23/2019 3:26:24 AM #39

Excuse my ignorance, but will Kypiq be able to engage in logging without becoming social pariahs and incurring some kind of consequences?

"Kypiq don't have any trouble working wood. It's killing things without cause or due consideration they have an issue with: Everything is a life, and everything deserves life -- unless their continued existence is a threat to the lives of others."

I cannot imagine a scenario where the existence of trees could endanger their lives, so will chopping down trees always be an immoral action? I also do not understand what cause or consideration would look like.


4/23/2019 10:37:32 AM #40

Posted By FlynnPontis at 11:26 PM - Mon Apr 22 2019

Excuse my ignorance, but will Kypiq be able to engage in logging without becoming social pariahs and incurring some kind of consequences?

"Kypiq don't have any trouble working wood. It's killing things without cause or due consideration they have an issue with: Everything is a life, and everything deserves life -- unless their continued existence is a threat to the lives of others."

I cannot imagine a scenario where the existence of trees could endanger their lives, so will chopping down trees always be an immoral action? I also do not understand what cause or consideration would look like.

I mean...

Trees fall.

I feel there's a huge miss in this starting topic in general, because - as someone from a place where well, the trees cut our sun exposure to walking across the national park - you can both farm in forest shade & harvesting already dead wood is... Easy. It's bountiful.

I can't imagine Kypiq are totally averse to killing anyway, they'd be averse to wanton killing or sport killing. Like a lot of native cultures, including mine, waste is likely the real cardinal sin.

So, as long as they're letting fruit & vegetables come to the end of their life cycle before harvesting, avoiding wanton animal slaughter, & working Deadwood... They shouldn't have to hold back from participating in agriculture, woodworking, construction, even husbandry.

That's just my take, but I can say with absolute certainty that some crops will adapt to low light or dimlight scenarios & being anti waste isn't being pro never touching anything in nature.

In some lights, recycling dead product into something new & more lasting is the ultimate contribution to the great cycle of things.


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4/23/2019 11:05:42 AM #41

While I don't agree with most of what you consider problems and the solutions to them I do agree that a straight stamina penalty is unfair as most small creatures are full of energy and stamina. I am not saying remove the stamina penalty but change it to where they have a large boost or buff to energy/stamina & speed for a duration after eating Nuts or Berries (nonpoisonous of course) rivaling the higher endurance tribes or exceeding them.

While they can eat foliage too this shouldn't give them this bonus so they have to deal with the stamina penalty but not starve.

This would make them able to properly run and evade if well fed on Nuts & Berries but then easy prey if they eat nothing but grass & twigs.


4/23/2019 11:53:54 AM #42

Posted By Emperor Spriggan at 1:05 PM - Tue Apr 23 2019

While I don't agree with most of what you consider problems and the solutions to them I do agree that a straight stamina penalty is unfair as most small creatures are full of energy and stamina.

This doesn't have to be a bad thing, as long as it is compensated by other mechanics. In my opinion, it makes sense that they have less stamina to fight and sprint. To hit effectively, they need to use more strength than a heavier person after all. And we don't want them to compete against Brudvirs on a marathon.

Instead, they could have particularities that make them very efficient in biomes with trees and support their mechanic of camouflage. For instance :

• even if they can't run for a very long time, they run very fast

• they use very little stamina when climbing

• they regenerate quickly their stamina when they are hidden

This way you make them very agile, very mobile (so difficult to hit) while ensuring they are still more vulnerable fighters than other tribes.


Barony of Kern’s gate

4/23/2019 6:11:39 PM #43

Posted By Lord_Greystoke at 10:43 PM - Sun Jan 20 2019

Is the Alpha launched and I wasn't told???

How can there be a problem without a 'game' to test the mechanics?

Are you implying the devs are too daft to make the mechanics of being a small race compatible in combat to taller ones but still maintain their racial traits?

Not trying to come off as obtuse,I'm really not

Firstly, when stating you are trying not to do something, it usually means you, at least subconsciously, realize you are doing it (no offense, but insert offense as an example"

The entire point of the post it to state that, as it appears to be conceptualized now, the poster feels that the game will not be balanced, and/or will need specific things done to balance.

He is not stating "Are you implying the devs are too daft to make the mechanics of being a small race compatible in combat to taller ones but still maintain their racial traits", just pointing out possible deficiencies and offering up ideas to fix them. You know, before an entire game is made with 100s of hours into realizing a concept. Hopefully the devs see the post, and take all of it into consideration while forming the game, as they may not have thought through every idea posted, and it may help them as they design.
Kudos on the post Lord_Krieg


Evil? More like Chaotic Neutral...ish

4/23/2019 7:19:34 PM #44

In regards to combat i expect the Kypiq wont be needing a big advantage to stamina. I expect them to be specialized in ranged combat. Therefore they don't need stamina, but precision, stealth and technology advantages. I expect Kypiq to have technological advantages to bows and other ranged weapons. Hitting attackers from above from the trees, catching attackers before they can reach the Kypiq hidden in the tree. If you look at armors, the backside has some very interesting "weak points" which could be exploited by the Kypiqs when hitting their opponents from above/behind. Take an arrow to the knee they said, backside of the knee is such a weak point.

Further on i dont agree to 2.2. Trees will be available i guess in all biomes. They might not be as tall and maybe the amount of trees is more limited. But I think outside their own biome, it would still be viable for a Kypiq to build his house in a tree. Safely above ground as their personal quarters, where maybe a shop, workshop or even a farm might be on floor level to accommodate their trade or visitors.

A lot of the things mentioned in the first post is based on assumptions, so are mine. For every problem there is a solution, and the solution might not as straightforward as we think of now. The idea of Kypiq being proto-engineers is what I like and this would make Kypiq inventors a valuable asset to any civilization or tribe. Or even better, as keeper of some technology they can influence the outcome of wars between other tribes by whom to "bless" with their tech. A good reason to keep them as friends instead of overrunning them and making them extinct.


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4/24/2019 8:36:10 PM #45

I think the OP neglects the fact that a live tree routinely drops dead branches. My front yard has a dozen 200 year old Oaks in it and the rain of dead wood is so great we routinely fill wheel barrels with it after a good windstorm.

An arboreal culture would have no trouble collecting large amounts of wood directly from such branches while they are still attached to the trees, likely cutting beams and plants directly from them. This would have the advantage of preempting these branches from falling in an uncontrolled manor, possibly damaging things on the ground. So I see no lack of usable wood for Kypiq and regular tree-trimming as a necessary part of their culture.


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