I agree with all of the above.

Sorry now you get down votes

You are my favorite cute pig. I think winning should feel good losing not so much though. I think any good game has highs and lows and being defeated by an opponent then training and coming back to defeat them is more satisfying when the original defeat was a bad experience.

Sure. PvP should feel good, if engage in voluntarily, on terms of mutuality, and within the local customs and rules of acceptable behavior. It's a lot like other things that way.

If combat is challenging and fun -- then PvP can be. I don't think there is anyone who would disagree with that, and I don't see any reason why to think that goal is not a key "must have" feature for the Devs.

However, if your point is "don't complain about aggressive, nonconsensual PvP gameplay -- because it's for the lulz." Well, that is just anti-social, and I expect many of us won't see fun in that.

everything should feel good in a game. Unless you annoyed too many people and gave them bad days. Then there should be a way to give you a bad day back.

Posted By Beathan at 9:22 PM - Thu Jan 17 2019

Sure. PvP should feel good, if engage in voluntarily, on terms of mutuality, and within the local customs and rules of acceptable behavior. It's a lot like other things that way.

However, if your point is "don't complain about aggressive, nonconsensual PvP gameplay -- because it's for the lulz." Well, that is just anti-social, and I expect many of us won't see fun in that.

I'll admit the first time I read this I thought "The fuck is all this consent shit?" I read it again, and frankly I still have no clue what you're talking about.

If (and I'm sure no-one is this pants on head retarded) you're suggesting that the PvP involved in banditry and other forms of deviancy (which are key parts of this game) should all be polite and consensual in order to be fun then I'm going to have to disagree heavily.

PvP should feel fun - even if it has be forced upon you. Defending your caravan from bandits, your steading from raiders or your nation from a marauding army should feel good regardless of if you desire the fight or not. Deviants also shouldn't have to ask politely to rob you in order to have fun.

Posted By chipla at 2:35 PM - Thu Jan 17 2019

Posted By Beathan at 9:22 PM - Thu Jan 17 2019

Sure. PvP should feel good, if engage in voluntarily, on terms of mutuality, and within the local customs and rules of acceptable behavior. It's a lot like other things that way.

However, if your point is "don't complain about aggressive, nonconsensual PvP gameplay -- because it's for the lulz." Well, that is just anti-social, and I expect many of us won't see fun in that.

I'll admit the first time I read this I thought "The fuck is all this consent shit?" I read it again, and frankly I still have no clue what you're talking about.

If (and I'm sure no-one is this pants on head retarded) you're suggesting that the PvP involved in banditry and other forms of deviancy (which are key parts of this game) should all be polite and consensual in order to be fun then I'm going to have to disagree heavily.

PvP should feel fun - even if it has be forced upon you. Defending your caravan from bandits, your steading from raiders or your nation from a marauding army should feel good regardless of if you desire the fight or not. Deviants also shouldn't have to ask politely to rob you in order to have fun.

Of course I don't think that. This is a game with played deviancy in it -- and people consent to that. The key is that there is also ingame laws and law enforcement. I don't want RKers or gankers going around doing "PvP" and then whining about the ingame consequences as "ruining the fun."

Also, there is a lot of sick joy some people get about playing a game in a way designed to make other people's experience miserable -- and a lot of PvP has that aspect in many games. My hope of this game is that we will have the tools, as players and player communities, to come up with and enforce our own local standards of acceptable behavior. People can then vote -- or consent -- with their feet, taking their character to an ingame location where the standards of behavior are what they want.

Then we defend those spaces, and those standards. And that is probably going to be very fun.

Consent really isn't that difficult to understand. If a person chooses to participate in some activity as a willing participant, that is consent. If they stay in a place they can leave, that is consent. If they maintain or escalate hostile engagement, or engage in active, self-help retaliation for perceived misdeeds, that is consent.

Consent is also not about outcomes -- but about activities. Here, it is probably about general, not specific, activities. I am a lawyer and I think of things through that lens -- can't help it. There is a line of cases where people injured in contact sports sued the person who injured them. The outcomes went like this -- if the injury happened as a sad event, but one that happened despite people following the rules, it's sad, but not wrong, because everyone consented to the rules in advance; but if the injury happened because someone broke the rules, especially if they broke rules designed to prevent that injury, then the person who caused the harm is liable and should be held responsible. I'm using that concept -- with the rules being those set up by the local communities we create to the extent we can defend those communities from ingame challenges and conquest.

The coolest aspect of this game is that we can make the social contract real, at least in our own virtual communities. That doesn't mean that people won't violate it. They will. And there should be consequences if they do.

There is also a background set of violence and "death to carebears" from the inherent nature of a PvP enabled game. It is a lawless space. We know that. If there are to be laws, we need to make them and enforce them. That will be fun for most of us. If that won't be fun, well -- there are other games with less hostile interaction built in as the default.

Again, I just don't want to hear the whining of people who want to engage in random violence without consequences because its fun for them until someone squashes them for it. And I do want to see us come together, in our local ingame communities, to squash them for it.

Uh, eh...

This game might not be for you then. I thought we all knew that this game was an open world PvP game with no PvE servers. That's the nature of the game. You are essentially wanting PvP to not exist when it's pivotal on so many levels. From how you engage in diplomatic relations, To the slap in the face you or your companions will do to another person because they've screwed you one too many times.

There is always consequence to people doing something wrong and they've got caught. However, that "wrong" to a degree is what your lord decides. Some of the woes in the land are because your leige or yourself did something wrong to make you a target for the petty criminals.

Do understand that there will be involuntary combat, not just wargames, arenas, and fightclubs that will be there to get the PvP fix.

There doesn't need to be mechanically enforced consent in this game in the least bit. Games that have that mechanic are trash and they should feel bad. I'm looking at you fallout 76.

There is also no intention of this game having flag for PvP, its just going to exist... You are always "flagged" for PvP, design your settlements accordingly.

If by your logic, installing and buying the game is consent enough. You know the rules of the game, before you buy the game. You are playing the game that'd you paid for with these rules within. Player made laws and NPCs that enforce those.

PvP should be best in class for an MMORPG. Most of us are going to do a metric ton of it. It needs to be both rewarding and fun to do.

The best way to have PvP "feel good" in a majority of games is to be matched up with people of a similar skill level.

The rest is mostly subjective.

Posted By Sagan at 01:47 AM - Fri Jan 18 2019

The best way to have PvP "feel good" in a majority of games is to be matched up with people of a similar skill level.

The rest is mostly subjective.

I've met quite a lot of people that desire winning more than challenges... And those people tend to get annoying for people that "just want to play the game"... I'm not saying that there should be PvE servers or safe spots for people that dont want to fight... but there are for sure people that would prefer playing CoE without fighting at all (not that they'd care if others fight, but they would prefer not to participate). And to those, it will never "feel good", if their caravan or settlement gets attacked, no matter how the combat mechanics work.

Gunghoe,

You do not understand what I am saying, or understand the idea of consent, at all. Try again.

Remember, every MMA fighter consented to pretty hard core PvP. And keep in mind that just about every MMA fighter could beat the hell out of just about everyone else just about everywhere else. But they don’t. They don’t because they will be arrested, and that will prevent them from doing the really challenging PvP they want to do.

I’m not against PvP. But I am excited by community building and creating laws and standards to make it very rare in many places. Or at least make it have serious negative consequences many places. Perhaps, even with those, there will be fools enough for it not to be rare.

Posted By Beathan at 9:38 PM - Thu Jan 17 2019

Gunghoe,

You do not understand what I am saying, or understand the idea of consent, at all. Try again.

Remember, every MMA fighter consented to pretty hard core PvP. And keep in mind that just about every MMA fighter could beat the hell out of just about everyone else just about everywhere else. But they don’t. They don’t because they will be arrested, and that will prevent them from doing the really challenging PvP they want to do.

I’m not against PvP. But I am excited by community building and creating laws and standards to make it very rare in many places. Or at least make it have serious negative consequences many places. Perhaps, even with those, there will be fools enough for it not to be rare.

re-read my comment, I mentioned arenas. which is MMA.

Posted By Gunghoe at 9:31 PM - Thu Jan 17 2019

Posted By Beathan at 9:38 PM - Thu Jan 17 2019

Gunghoe,

You do not understand what I am saying, or understand the idea of consent, at all. Try again.

Remember, every MMA fighter consented to pretty hard core PvP. And keep in mind that just about every MMA fighter could beat the hell out of just about everyone else just about everywhere else. But they don’t. They don’t because they will be arrested, and that will prevent them from doing the really challenging PvP they want to do.

I’m not against PvP. But I am excited by community building and creating laws and standards to make it very rare in many places. Or at least make it have serious negative consequences many places. Perhaps, even with those, there will be fools enough for it not to be rare.

re-read my comment, I mentioned arenas. which is MMA.

Ah. I did. In retrospect, we are saying the same thing, just coming at it from different directions and emphasizing different things. My bad.

This is one aspect of PvP but I'm sure the person that wants to cook and not fight at all will have a totally different concept on what feels good when it comes to pvp. Losing your gold for the day will give some people purpose but the others will just say it's grieving. This is the one thing I'm worried about when it comes to pvp. I feel like the devs will buckle being the large part of their player base will not be pvpers. I believe pvp needs to feel bad enough for someone to use the services of a pvp/combat specialist but good enough the combat specialist feel as though they can win as long as they improve.

Posted By Deftly at 08:38 AM - Fri Jan 18 2019

This is one aspect of PvP but I'm sure the person that wants to cook and not fight at all will have a totally different concept on what feels good when it comes to pvp. Losing your gold for the day will give some people purpose but the others will just say it's grieving. This is the one thing I'm worried about when it comes to pvp. I feel like the devs will buckle being the large part of their player base will not be pvpers. I believe pvp needs to feel bad enough for someone to use the services of a pvp/combat specialist but good enough the combat specialist feel as though they can win as long as they improve.

Except that Caspian has said on multiple occasions that virtually everything in the world will be pvp, including crafting. You'll be competing with other players to have the best type of meals that people/adventurers will buy and so be undercutting/being undercut in the markets, you'll have people breaking into your shop to steal your recipes and yes, kill you and loot your shop of goods.

It has been said over and over again that this is a niche game...and this is just one more example of it. People who want to be crafters will need to realize that if they just want to cook and not deal with the pvp aspect, both in crafting, commerce, intrigue and combat, this is not the game for them because even in a very very well ordered area with lots of laws, guards to enforce them, sheriffs and deputies to track down those that manage to break the laws, pvp will be rampant on every aspect but the combat.

Posted By Dariusacmar at 11:13 AM - Fri Jan 18 2019

Posted By Deftly at 08:38 AM - Fri Jan 18 2019

This is one aspect of PvP but I'm sure the person that wants to cook and not fight at all will have a totally different concept on what feels good when it comes to pvp. Losing your gold for the day will give some people purpose but the others will just say it's grieving. This is the one thing I'm worried about when it comes to pvp. I feel like the devs will buckle being the large part of their player base will not be pvpers. I believe pvp needs to feel bad enough for someone to use the services of a pvp/combat specialist but good enough the combat specialist feel as though they can win as long as they improve.

Except that Caspian has said on multiple occasions that virtually everything in the world will be pvp, including crafting. You'll be competing with other players to have the best type of meals that people/adventurers will buy and so be undercutting/being undercut in the markets, you'll have people breaking into your shop to steal your recipes and yes, kill you and loot your shop of goods.

It has been said over and over again that this is a niche game...and this is just one more example of it. People who want to be crafters will need to realize that if they just want to cook and not deal with the pvp aspect, both in crafting, commerce, intrigue and combat, this is not the game for them because even in a very very well ordered area with lots of laws, guards to enforce them, sheriffs and deputies to track down those that manage to break the laws, pvp will be rampant on every aspect but the combat.

He said that but that's not ever what people refer to when they talk about PvP PvP will always been being physically attacked by another player until the game comes out. Even if it's been said that it's a niche game, if you have enough people complaining about a single aspect of the game, something may change. It has happened plenty times in other games.