Forums - Chronicles of Elyria

1/8/2019 5:51:10 PMCombat and PvP

Muleface

Member
Rank 4
43 Posts
February 2016

Hello. It's me.

Combat in CoE is still a mystery, with only a few small clips being shown that don't really reveal much. PvP is imperative to the greater success of CoE, and I'd like to discuss how i think it can be made glorious.

Point 1: Do not have the camera "lock on". A locked camera dumbs down combat by removing the need to aim the swing of your sword, and by limiting dodges to the press of a button rather than the players movement - It limits PvP to a 2D plane. Have the camera free, as it is when roaming the wild.

Point 2: Your sword should swing where you aim. If I'm looking up and left click, I should swing up in the air. If I look down and left click, I should swing into the ground. This will be crucial when the Kypiq rise up and stab at our shins.

Point 3: Do not have locked attack animations. When I left click, I should swing my sword infront of me. Nothing more, nothing less. It should not lock the full character into an animation, but only the character's upper body, leaving the movement of the character in the player's control. Attacking with heavy weapons should slow movement during the attack.

Point 4: Hitboxes must be true to the character and weapon model. If I swing my sword and it doesn't visually connect with their model, it should not deal damage. Players should be able to duck under attacks and move in and out of the enemies reach. The Kypiq need not duck.

Point 5: Attacks should not be instant. If I left click I should not instantly swing my sword, but instead I bring my arm back then swing forwards. The time taken to bring the arm back should be proportional to the weight of the weapon. This can be the visual que needed to parry or dodge the attack.

I hope SbS considers these points when developing the combat mechanics. I really am not keen on the idea of CoE with "For Honor" combat or similar.

Anyway thanks for reading. What's your thoughts?

Edit: Having thought it through and reading Jouten's responses, I realise I have basically just described mount and blade's combat. Though it would be cool to see in CoE, I doubt it would work out. 😘

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/9/2019 3:00:13 AM #31

HerbLord

Member
Rank 5
312 Posts
May 2016

I'm glad the pre-Elyria combat footage looks similar to the witcher 3, It was one of the most fun I've had in terms of combat from games.

Mount and blade doesnt look realistic tbh, you shouldnt be able to move your lowerbody freely when using attacks from your upper body. There should be momentum and footwork animations are necessary for that, so I disagree with your 3rd point. Sorry, swinging your blade in front of you while freely running in circles at the same moment of your swinging isn't realistic, and it wouldn't have much force behind the attack.

But judging by the combat footage I shared above seems like SBS is doing the combat justice, and your 3rd point isn't something they agree with.

1/9/2019 3:02:58 AM #32

Thecutepig

Member
Rank 7
173 Posts
March 2018

Sorry but its going to be more skill based combat. Not level 50 combat skills will beat level 10 combat level. More like if you miss and get hit you will take damage. If you get parried multiple times and get hit you will likely lose no matter combat level. University doesn't compensate for lack of actual combat training. Simulated combat will always lose to real combat experience.

The nicest pig in the world and a little cute.

1/9/2019 3:09:20 AM #33

Sulfurblade

Member
Rank 6
48 Posts
January 2019

Posted By Thecutepig at 7:02 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Sorry but its going to be more skill based combat. Not level 50 combat skills will beat level 10 combat level. More like if you miss and get hit you will take damage. If you get parried multiple times and get hit you will likely lose no matter combat level. University doesn't compensate for lack of actual combat training. Simulated combat will always lose to real combat experience.

Not if they weight the characters ability in a way like Kingdom Come Deliverance does.... Which if you have to have realistic combat then there you go that would be the game to model it after!

1/9/2019 3:42:27 AM #34

Muleface

Member
Rank 4
43 Posts
February 2016

Posted By Sulfurblade at 02:53 AM - Wed Jan 09 2019

Your absolutely right that the player with the higher skill should win! But skill is a stat in CoE, and so I ultimately believe the guy with the higher stat should win.... Not some special hand eye coordination faster mouse movement and improved button smashing type skill.... But that guys character spent 4 More years studying the arts of wielding a sword in the university!!!

Skill isn't a stat in CoE wtf are you talking about? Skill is your ability to outwit and outplay your opponent. Every game with two sides has skill involved. Have you never played chess, monopoly, or any board game?

Studying 4 years in game should give your character a higher stat, yes. But what that stat can't make up for is your lack of skill. Doesn't matter how hard you swing, if you can't land a hit.

Wheres the fun in going into battle to play "who's got the highest number" anyway?

Player 1: "42"

Player 2: "76"

Player 1: "aw fuk well I guess you win GG wp. I shoulda spent another 2 weeks real time letting my character read a book"

Lmao fck off.

And wtf are you on about, saying CoE isn't an action game? Look at the gif of pre-elyria posted on the front page of this thread. That is action. And it had not even been fleshed out yet. CoE is a multiple genre game. It's an Action, Survival, Crafting mmorpg.

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/9/2019 12:11:33 PM #35

Reggie

Member
Rank 4
210 Posts
December 2015

Posted By Sulfurblade at 9:53 PM - Tue Jan 08

Your absolutely right that the player with the higher skill should win! But skill is a stat in CoE, and so I ultimately believe the guy with the higher stat should win.... Not some special hand eye coordination faster mouse movement and improved button smashing type skill.... But that guys character spent 4 More years studying the arts of wielding a sword in the university!!!

Again this is not going to be some action combat game!!! And I thank the stars above for that!!!

I don't know how anything that has been released in regards to this game would ever give you any kind of indication that it would be so?!?

Out of curiosity, how do you perceive combat working exactly?

Can you give a detailed example describing what is happening within the virtual game, as well as the physical player inputs?

The closest thing I can think of is OSRS, but I don’t want to assume. Can you elaborate?

1/9/2019 12:20:52 PM #36

Kaynadin

Member
Rank 9
1293 Posts
February 2016

Three things are at play in combat: character stats (stamina, strength, agility, armor class, reach), character skill (which moves you know), and player skill (how well you out think and out time your opponent). The winner of any engagement will be determined by the combo of all of the above.

1/9/2019 1:45:12 PM #37

Melkar

Member
Rank 8
712 Posts
August 2017

Stats, training, and skill will play the most important role in combat but no matter how much player skill you have, gear, tech, or training you have could just as easily be undone by sheer luck. Which is a good thing imo.

There will always be gaps and inferior armors/weapons in battle as the arms race progresses. There is no invincibility that cant be pierced by arrows or any number of pointed weapons. Even if you are coated from head to toe in metal you are still always vulnerable to blunt force weapons.

The best part about combat in CoE is that even if you see someone you think you can fight you never truely know what they have, the quality of their gear, their skill, or player skill they possess. You may have the odds somewhat stacked in your favor but the reality is that anything could happen once combat starts.

If you have items or assets you no longer have use for feel free to send them my way.

1/9/2019 4:02:10 PM #38

Sulfurblade

Member
Rank 6
48 Posts
January 2019

Posted By Reggie at 04:11 AM - Wed Jan 09 2019

Posted By Sulfurblade at 9:53 PM - Tue Jan 08

Your absolutely right that the player with the higher skill should win! But skill is a stat in CoE, and so I ultimately believe the guy with the higher stat should win.... Not some special hand eye coordination faster mouse movement and improved button smashing type skill.... But that guys character spent 4 More years studying the arts of wielding a sword in the university!!!

Again this is not going to be some action combat game!!! And I thank the stars above for that!!!

I don't know how anything that has been released in regards to this game would ever give you any kind of indication that it would be so?!?

Out of curiosity, how do you perceive combat working exactly?

Can you give a detailed example describing what is happening within the virtual game, as well as the physical player inputs?

The closest thing I can think of is OSRS, but I don’t want to assume. Can you elaborate?

I you have ever played Kingdom Come Deliverance you will have an idea of what I think combat should be like....

However I would change the Agility / strength requirements to be more in line with study as a squire under a Matrtial tutor who would teach you his mastery of a given weapon and or style of defense and or talent for faint or dodge...

If you have ever played KCD you would quickly see how the process of your character learning turns him from a clueless peasant with no hope of defeating a trained opponent to being on par with such a foe!

1/9/2019 4:50:33 PM #39

Snipehunter

Designer
874 Posts
September 2017

Hmm, let me see if I can shed some light here with a quick list of facts about combat:

There is a softlock system in the current build of the game. It's not necessary to fight, and the intention is to allow people to turn it off, though at the moment you can't do that.
When you execute an attack it is a full animation and your sword will swing where that attack takes it. There's a "martial arts" system in the game that requires you to learn combat styles, their related stances, and the attacks one can throw from each stance. This system allows for warrior-style player where a player seeks out training in a style, learns that style and eventually makes it their own, allowing both personal customization (once you attain mastery you can build your own combat style out of what you know) and regional variances in types and tactics of combat. However, where the blade lands in a attack is what was hit, meaning none of the positional play of a duel or tight melee is lost; what's different is that to properly aim your attack is to know which attacks to throw when, rather than where to look when you press the button.
No attacks are instant, all movements in attacks are "real" in that no animation snapping or other shortcut methods are used. If your axe needs to be above your head for an overhead swing, your character will first raise that axe over their head before swinging it down on its target.

As for the importance of stats, gear, and player skill, it works somethings like this: A character's stat determines things how quickly they can move, how much energy they can use in short bursts, their overall health/vitality, and how much natural damage resistance, if any, they might have, and plays a secondary role in other determiners like how much damage an attack does. The weapon determines the type of damage being done, the reach of your attacks, how much damage is being done (in conjunction with character stats), and a few other things like how badly your attack will degrade armor if it hits. Player skill determines everything else.

That generally means that a farmer vs. a knight in-game has about as much chance as a farmer vs. a knight in real life: All other things being equal, with a lot of skill to properly place attacks, avoid being struck, and maintain the initiative in the positional aspect of combat, the farmer can win with nearly any equipment. But the right equipment, along with actual training, will still make that task easier for the farmer, or if the skill and eq is on the knight, make the farmer's job more difficult in that fight. As Kaynadin said earlier, it's something of a hybrid. Player skill will always play a part, but so will the state of your character.

Hope that helps! :)

Snipehunter

1/9/2019 5:20:44 PM #40

MagistrateMondra

Member
Rank 10
242 Posts
November 2016

Can you explain “softlock“ mode...or go a bit into detail?

1/9/2019 5:30:12 PM #41

Labbe

Member
Rank 10
1495 Posts
October 2018

Posted By MagistrateMondra at 09:20 AM - Wed Jan 09 2019

Can you explain “softlock“ mode...or go a bit into detail?

Soft lock as in locking on to the people you are fighting. It "soft locks" so you can keep focused on them, or you can easily turn tail and book it out of there.

1/9/2019 6:04:54 PM #42

Jouten

Member
Rank 7
483 Posts
October 2015

I always imagined the soft lock to be something akin to an elastic snap in a way. You'll be focused on the person but if you wanted to look away and book it you would just move the mouse a bit more. So to exemplify, your cursor goes over the guy and you've snapped to target and you can just focus on just the button input cuz the camera is locked onto them, but if you "intentiionally" move the mouse (they'd set some sensitivity bounds by default on how far you'd move the mouse, something I'm sure we could all edit ourselves as a setting) you can snap out of the lock-on.

1/9/2019 6:57:19 PM #43

Muleface

Member
Rank 4
43 Posts
February 2016

Posted By Snipehunter at 4:50 PM - Wed Jan 09 2019

Hope that helps! :)

It sure does, thanks!

You hear that, you thug knights? A farmer with not but a hoe in his hands and one back home, can beat your shiny metal ass!

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/9/2019 7:10:30 PM #44

Melkar

Member
Rank 8
712 Posts
August 2017

A farmer is also a lot more likely to parkour onto the roof and throw things too. They may be able to block weapons but how well does their armor protect against boiling soup, burning sand, or flaming oil or lightning?

If you have items or assets you no longer have use for feel free to send them my way.

1/9/2019 7:15:57 PM #45

Jouten

Member
Rank 7
483 Posts
October 2015

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 2:10 PM - Wed Jan 09 2019

or lightning?

Hold up.... farmers can summon forth lightning?!