12 May

Almost But not Quite Done

By Caspian

EDIT: This post has been updated to reflect changes to our planning. The Domain and Settlement Selection site will be brought online in a review-only mode once the integration of maps and site is complete. This will be followed by a short window of time for monarchs to pick their duchies, counties and settlements. Finally, the normal pick process will resume thereafter.

Hail Elyrians!

Over the last week we've made huge progress on all three areas of Domain & Settlement Selection. The content team has completed the terrain generation and we're now sitting on four complete sets of elevation data. Each set is made up of 256 different 4k tiles, totaling over 16 GB of elevation data. On top of that, the content team has finished the higher resolution resource maps that tell us what the surface and subsurface resources are of each parcel of the starting continent. To get these maps created required almost round-the-clock execution of four separate 72 core machines, each running at 100% CPU utilization with almost 200 Gb of RAM. But the work is done, and the content team has moved off Domain & Settlement Selection! Huzzah!


Sample Terrain Tile

The second team, the metadata team, has been working tirelessly to balance the design-time and run-time game mechanics including the resource distribution, tribal distributions, and settlement distributions. While it may not be immediately obvious, there's a huge amount of interconnectivity between the work we're doing on the generation of the maps, and the way the game will be played and feel on launch day. As a result, there's been a lot of effort this week put toward making sure the game is fun at launch.


View of the D&SS Details Tab

We need to ensure that settlements are neither too far away, nor too close together. That they're neither over or under-populated, and that there's neither too little nor too much resources. We're not just building maps; we're building an entire world! The metadata team does have a bit more work to do, however, as the water simulations haven't completed, preventing us from determining exactly where water will exist in the world. As you can imagine, this is pivotal as it's not only a vital resource, but it also plays a role in where settlements are located, which in turn helps determine where county lines are drawn. We anticipate another couple of days of work required to complete the water simulations and rendering. Now that the content team is no longer using the build machines, and the terrain is done being created, the metadata team will be taking over use of the cloud machines.

And finally, the web team is feature complete on the website and is currently working through a full set of tests to validate its functionality. We anticipate being done with the test pass tomorrow.

As you can see, things are coming together -- and we're close -- but we're not quite there yet. This means that we won't be releasing Domain and Settlement Selection to you on Monday, the 13th. Earlier today, I spoke with several hundred of you, including many of the monarchs and nobles of the various servers to discuss the situation and our plans moving forward.

Based on that conversation, and our own internal planning, our efforts to complete the maps and bring the site online will continue as planned over the coming days. Once the site and the maps are integrated, however, we'll bring the Domain and Settlement Selection site online for your perusal in a review-only state. Only then will we officially open the site to resume Domain and Settlement Selection, shortly thereafter.

When the claim period begins, we will begin with a short time reserved for the monarchs, who will choose their duchies, counties, and seats of power, and will then proceed to the dukes as previously planned. By doing things this way, we'll allow the kings time to complete their picks of their duchy, county, and settlement ahead of the ducal picks. And, even as the monarchs make their last picks, the maps will be visible to everyone, ensuring everyone has a period of review before their pick time comes up.

We'll be giving you all regular updates throughout the process with images and other snippets of our progress so you can track where we are as we push to cross the finish line.

It's a been a long road getting to Domain & Settlement Selection folks. In many ways, building and balancing these massive worlds has been just as difficult and complex as building the technology they'll run on. But we're almost done. Just hang in there a little while longer and we'll get back to picking domains.

Pledged to the continued development of the Soulborn Engine and the Chronicles of Elyria,

Caspian

Discuss

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TheBlabloop - 2 months ago

I didn't want to go into this thinking I was investing. No, I went into this knowing that I was supporting a LLC working on their first game. A developer not yet tainted by a publisher like EA who can work on this with their own timeline in mind. Please, keep making selfish decisions for the benefit of us, your supporters and future players, and for yourselves in equal measure.

They have a dream and the will to accomplish that dream. I basically donated to the cause and got some goodies for my efforts. No investment, if I think like that then I'm implying they owe me something. These guys started this and then reached out for support. We chose to help, not hold them under our thumbs because we handed out a dollar or two.... sheesh.

Rojinn - 2 months ago

As a player previously said, I, too, came in to select, to find nothing. I'm assuming we will receive some mailing, or something to let us know when we can make a selection. I am fine with the delay, as long as the game is polished when opened up to us. I am hopeful that this will be all we hope it will be and have invested our money in to be. Patiently waiting...

DPierre - 2 months ago

awesome looking like it's all coming together!!!

Scorus - 2 months ago

Yes. It has been delayed until all the work that needs to be done is done. No dates, no missed deadlines.

Dreissea - 2 months ago

Is settlement selection off until further notice then? Came in to select, thinking it was still just running a week late.

sir squanchy - 2 months ago

I think people are afraid this is going to be another no mans sky situation but this game seems really fleshed out and I think they're gonna do a great job. Haters gon hate

Kyleran - 2 months ago
@sir squanchy:

Posted By sir squanchy at 09:01 AM - Wed May 29 2019

I think people are afraid this is going to be another no mans sky situation but this game seems really fleshed out and I think they're gonna do a great job. Haters gon hate

Backers here should only hope COE reaches the success NMS has become, a truly good game now which keeps giving me free content for some strange reason.

Apparently Sean doesn't know he's doing it all wrong.

;)

Scorus - 2 months ago
@sir squanchy:

Posted By sir squanchy at 09:01 AM - Wed May 29 2019

I think people are afraid this is going to be another no mans sky situation but this game seems really fleshed out and I think they're gonna do a great job. Haters gon hate

I don't see much similarity to NMS. Revival and Atriarch are what people are afraid this will turn out to be.

Gunnlang - 2 months ago
@sir squanchy:

Posted By sir squanchy at 11:01 PM - Wed May 29 2019

I think people are afraid this is going to be another no mans sky situation but this game seems really fleshed out and I think they're gonna do a great job. Haters gon hate

Fleshed out? Most of the game mechanics we know nothing about. But NMS was only rushed because of a publisher, so unless SBS is about to get with one, shouldn't be even able to compare those two games. Unless you are meaning all the lying Sean did beforehand.

Kerlem - 2 months ago

They admitted that they made a mistake by announcing deadlines early and agreed to not do that any longer. It's not an easy thing to predict - and these people are neither lazy nor stupid, That being the case - what is it that you want from them?

RedDoggybone - 2 months ago

"Oh no a development team with a crazy ambitious goal has missed a deadline because what could be something that was unforeseen or a small error, or even a big one."

EVERY goal has been missed or dropped is the point. If this were the only one no one would be complaining. Maybe we should be starting to think that it's too ambitious for them? Has it not occurred to you that there may be other goals they are missing we don't even know about?

They change directions like they are the wind. If they would just stick to one thing until completion we would be seeing something by now.

Spinam - 2 months ago

You know how chrome has that dinosaur game for when there is no signal? Would be nice if SBS would give us something persistent to occupy ourselves while they keep missing deadlines. Maybe instead of another event they can release that standalone architecture tool they promised then pushed back to Alpha phase.... Or humor us and make a Minecraft texture pack. Or give us free copies to Life is Feudal to kill the time... I'm just peeved at how I got honeypotted by D&SS being up for 5 days and ended up dropping even more money. Got EP when the EP shop was merely conceptualized and will probably have issues working when/if it launches (maybe?)

Flyhumpy - 2 months ago

Oh no a development team with a crazy ambitious goal has missed a deadline because what could be something that was unforeseen or a small error, or even a big one.

I backed this game in 2015 knowing 5 years seemed like a pretty ambitious but realistic goal. Sure, they set dates that got things hyped up, that was a miscalculation, but damn....slow your rolls people! They are creating worlds!

Plus I'm pretty sure there are supposed to be continents we don't see yet, I'm not sure if those are being implemented at the same time, or they will begin to be generated when the worlds have discovered seafaring.

I will end my 2 cents with patience! Just have a little patience! Go outside, the weather is nice! I'm stuck in a hospital and will be housebound for the foreseeable short-term...wish I could enjoy outside!

RedDoggybone - 2 months ago

"The argument Dleatherus is making is in regards to why they had no clue. The time it takes a computer to process waste amount of data that takes hours or days is not easily predicted, especially when the number of loops that will be performed is unknown. In addition predicting the time it takes to output creative work in general is never possible to be accurate."

As others have said, this excuse does NOT make SBS look any better. 3 times the day before they were still saying it would be done in days. And yet here we are still waiting. The question is how could they so grossly miscalculate the amount of time needed 3 separate times? It makes laymen like me speculate that they do not know what the fuck they are doing. And I am sorry but most people here should be speculating that too. And you guys keep acting like each new miscalculation is a separate thing from the many others they have already made. At this point, it is not one tree in the forest you should be looking at but the whole dam forest.

Odelot - 2 months ago

And this is how the world ended, no one could have predicted that it would have occurred so soon.

Nubz_Unite - 2 months ago

The scariest part of this delay for me is that they thought they could complete the work by April 29th it's been nearly a month after that and it's still not done. I get the "cone of uncertainty" but how could no one on the project figure out that they were over a month behind schedule? Or that April 29th was an unrealistic date?

HajimeSaikou - 2 months ago
@Nubz_Unite:

Posted By Nubz_Unite at 08:14 AM - Tue May 28 2019

The scariest part of this delay for me is that they thought they could complete the work by April 29th it's been nearly a month after that and it's still not done. I get the "cone of uncertainty" but how could no one on the project figure out that they were over a month behind schedule? Or that April 29th was an unrealistic date?

it is a case of April 29th was unrealistic due to unforeseeable bugs and complications associated with the sheer size and complexity of the maps and DSS. There was no way to predict the potential domino effect a single bug might have because it is so complex

Gunnlang - 2 months ago
@HajimeSaikou:

Posted By HajimeSaikou at 10:43 AM - Tue May 28 2019

it is a case of April 29th was unrealistic due to unforeseeable bugs and complications associated with the sheer size and complexity of the maps and DSS. There was no way to predict the potential domino effect a single bug might have because it is so complex

You do know that doesn't come across any better. That's basically saying that SBS didn't account for how complex making each world would be. I say world, since other people have said "maps" and got jumped for it.

It's really the main excuse I see people still using, when others ask why the maps aren't ready. "That it's so insanely complex, with so many different moving parts that can't be changed later. Well of course it got blown out".

So really who is the bigger fool here? Us for believing SBS when they said date after date or SBS for thinking they could pull it off so easily? At least most backers can fall back on just being clueless about the whole thing. SBS being professions, should know better or at least know better than to use "it's just a few more days" so many times in a row.

HolyAvengerOne - 2 months ago

Oh, and I'll add to that, given Caspian's posts, and Snipe's subsequent explanations, we're not about to see DSS happen, and even much less Exposition,

It seems that they're now just diving into their procedural gen algorithms coming together. It took how long for Sean Murray's team to do the same on something a lot less complex?

Give it at least another couple months before the last mayor can make his pick.

Pendulum - 2 months ago

1 month later from the date announced date in the emails and we are still waiting for just the maps. Ouch.

Dleatherus - 2 months ago
@Pendulum:

Posted By Pendulum at 01:28 AM - Mon May 27 2019

1 month later from the date announced date in the emails and we are still waiting for just the maps. Ouch.

frustration of missed dates notwithstanding, if you think these are 'just maps' you need to educate yourself a little bit more on what is actually being created here

to paraphrase one of my dukes who is far more tech minded than myself, they are technically rendering eight huge maps at the same time with a metric fuck ton of vectors and variables.

Four overworld and four subterranean all of which are completely different.

They pull this shit off they'll be the first developer in history to do that.

Pendulum - 2 months ago
@Dleatherus:

Posted By Dleatherus at 12:47 AM - Tue May 28 2019

if you think these are 'just maps' you need to educate yourself a little bit more

Your quote of me is inaccurate and misleading.

HolyAvengerOne - 2 months ago
@Dleatherus:

Posted By Dleatherus at 10:47 AM - Mon May 27 2019

frustration of missed dates notwithstanding, if you think these are 'just maps' you need to educate yourself a little bit more on what is actually being created here

And if you think that's a valid justification for being 1 month late on a timeline they established themselves and were still gunning a couple days prior to it falling through... then you need to educate yourself a bit more on what it means to deliver on complex projects.

What this says here, loud and clear, is that they didn't have any clue what they were doing as they were working through that world gen stuff.

ShadowTani - 2 months ago
@HolyAvengerOne:

Posted By HolyAvengerOne at 5:22 PM - Mon May 27 2019

What this says here, loud and clear, is that they didn't have any clue what they were doing as they were working through that world gen stuff.

Dleatherus wasn't justifying the missed dates, the keyword there is "notwithstanding", which makes it an argument in spite of that. In other words, you're right that they had no clue, which is why they should never have set any dates before they reached the polishing stage. But if you expected them to have a clue, then you're the one being clueless.

The argument Dleatherus is making is in regards to why they had no clue. The time it takes a computer to process waste amount of data that takes hours or days is not easily predicted, especially when the number of loops that will be performed is unknown. In addition predicting the time it takes to output creative work in general is never possible to be accurate.

That is why those of us who do have some clue insist SBS cease providing dates to begin with because there is no way they can actually set an accurate date for projects of this nature. Even if they really wanted to meet it by the anniversary, as it turns out, it's a lot less of a bummer to delay the anniversary event than to actually have several missed dates in a row.

HolyAvengerOne - 2 months ago
@ShadowTani:

Posted By ShadowTani at 11:59 AM - Mon May 27 2019

The argument Dleatherus is making is in regards to why they had no clue. The time it takes a computer to process waste amount of data that takes hours or days is not easily predicted, especially when the number of loops that will be performed is unknown. In addition predicting the time it takes to output creative work in general is never possible to be accurate.

It's actually something called the computational complexity estimation of an algorithm, or algorithmic complexity, and those of us who do have some clue about delivering software based on algorithms manipulating large datasets (heh!) insist on saying that once your algorithms are designed and you know how to implement them, evaluating the resources it takes to do so is something that's well understood and done regularly, taught in schools and executed as part of real-world projects.

That being said, I agree with you that the time it takes to create something, to learn on a new thing or science or piece of technology, to build and operationalize it, that's a whole other thing, and its much more difficult to evaluate given the deep human element to it. And that's a PM's job to evaluate, so I think only Vye could give us an accurate post-mortem on the reasons why.

So if the delay is due to the massive amount of processing requiring, yeah, from an engineering standpoing, they didn't know what they were doing.

That is why those of us who do have some clue insist SBS cease providing dates to begin with because there is no way they can actually set an accurate date for projects of this nature. Even if they really wanted to meet it by the anniversary, as it turns out, it's a lot less of a bummer to delay the anniversary event than to actually have several missed dates in a row.

On that point we agree : it's much worse PUBLICLY to keep missing deadlines than to not announce any.

Otherwise, INTERNALLY, if they can't manage or have any idea on any kind of date or timeframe, that's way more scary. The word "mismanagement" comes to mind. I have to stay convinced that Vye has some idea. I'm just hoping she's able to do her job with as few impediments as possible.

I think at this point many of us are just worried, and legitimately so, and frankly when some guy that put down a few large on the game petulantly comes and tells us how he knows best, that's just laughable at best; at worse, it only serves in hurting the community further.

HolyAvengerOne - 2 months ago
@ShadowTani:

Posted By Dleatherus at 11:26 AM - Mon May 27 2019

i wasn't justifying anything - i was pointing out that these are not 'just maps'

Posted By ShadowTani at 11:59 AM - Mon May 27 2019

Dleatherus wasn't justifying the missed dates,

Posted By Pendulum at 05:28 AM - Tue May 28 2019

Posted By Dleatherus at 12:47 AM - Tue May 28 2019

if you think these are 'just maps' you need to educate yourself a little bit more

Your quote of me is inaccurate and misleading.

Yes, on top of being followed by an haughty and pretentious reply. Of course D was justifying/validating SBS's approach, as we've seen before, no matter how some of you guys try to dissect the words; it seems clear to me in his post that he's defending them in any way he can. And I don't blame him or other monarchs for doing so in trying to protect their diverse interests in the game, but it could be done with more respect and less undertone crap.

Dleatherus - 2 months ago
@HolyAvengerOne:

Posted By HolyAvengerOne at 08:22 AM - Mon May 27 2019

Posted By Dleatherus at 10:47 AM - Mon May 27 2019

frustration of missed dates notwithstanding, if you think these are 'just maps' you need to educate yourself a little bit more on what is actually being created here

And if you think that's a valid justification for being 1 month late on a timeline they established themselves and were still gunning a couple days prior to it falling through... then you need to educate yourself a bit more on what it means to deliver on complex projects.

What this says here, loud and clear, is that they didn't have any clue what they were doing as they were working through that world gen stuff.

i wasn't justifying anything - i was pointing out that these are not 'just maps'

Malkaven - 3 months ago

I don't mind the wait, but I am dissatisfied with the level of communication so far. We were all sent a pm with our selection date but where was the update pm when those dates were pushed back? I understand not wanting to promise any concrete dates before you are sure you can keep them, but we at least could have been sent something to ensure everyone knows what is going on and isn't in fear that they will miss their spot.

It feels like I have to dig for the latest information here which is not reassuring. Perhaps you don't like to talk about the fact that things haven't gone to plan so far, but not caring to keep everyone in the loop is far worse than any delay in my opinion. Obviously I come at this from an outside perspective, but sending mass mails does not seem like it would require a large time commitment.

It would be nice to get a pm once things are actually settled and back on track too rather than just being left to calculate our new selection date/time on our own which seemed to have been the plan after the initial delay.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago

I mean at this point lets keep this post bumped because I've seen like the 9th person now post/reply to threads about how they think they missed their spot because they can't find the DSS page and the email they got said they picked X day. I'm still bewildered why the mods haven't made a sticky or something for those players. Don't they do an intro section for a mod every community post? Where are they? Are they not allowed to ensure QoL on here?

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Takeda_Shinukage:

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 6:20 PM - Sun May 26 2019

I mean at this point lets keep this post bumped because I've seen like the 9th person now post/reply to threads about how they think they missed their spot because they can't find the DSS page and the email they got said they picked X day.

One day maybe enough people will kick up a stink about SBS terrible communication. Looking at my own emails. I have one about DSS starting soon, on the 6th of April. Then another one 3 days later about the date it will start.

Nothing since. Like you, I see at least a few people asking what seems like daily about what is going on. Some just appearing the day they are meant to picked and not even noticing the whole thing got delayed.

I can't see what would have been so hard about sending out an email to everyone explaining it had been delayed. Or even just sending everyone a PM here, explaining the same thing.

Their communication is nothing short of a joke. While they maybe pretty good if you hang around on discord. For anyone else, it's a tough shit moment.

Drunva - 2 months ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 09:51 AM - Sun May 26 2019

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 6:20 PM - Sun May 26 2019

I mean at this point lets keep this post bumped because I've seen like the 9th person now post/reply to threads about how they think they missed their spot because they can't find the DSS page and the email they got said they picked X day.

One day maybe enough people will kick up a stink about SBS terrible communication. Looking at my own emails. I have one about DSS starting soon, on the 6th of April. Then another one 3 days later about the date it will start.

Nothing since. Like you, I see at least a few people asking what seems like daily about what is going on. Some just appearing the day they are meant to picked and not even noticing the whole thing got delayed.

I can't see what would have been so hard about sending out an email to everyone explaining it had been delayed. Or even just sending everyone a PM here, explaining the same thing.

Their communication is nothing short of a joke. While they maybe pretty good if you hang around on discord. For anyone else, it's a tough shit moment.

So while, I have to agree with you in a general sense, in this particular instance it's doesn't really fit. If you log on to the site there's literally a Banner that takes you to that 'Almost but not quite Done' update from Caspian. Would sending messages to everyone have been more convenient on our end? Sure, but let's not act like they only mentioned the delay only on Discord, and for once the relevant update is pretty easy to find from the main homepage.

Gunnlang - 2 months ago
@Drunva:

Posted By Drunva at 02:44 AM - Mon May 27 2019

So while, I have to agree with you in a general sense, in this particular instance it's doesn't really fit. If you log on to the site there's literally a Banner that takes you to that 'Almost but not quite Done' update from Caspian. Would sending messages to everyone have been more convenient on our end? Sure, but let's not act like they only mentioned the delay only on Discord, and for once the relevant update is pretty easy to find from the main homepage.

I was more talking about someone completely out of the community. There has been many people, either making threads here or asking on discord about what is going on. So while it wouldn't have taken much for them to come across that news post. When they have had no emails telling them anything was delayed and come here, expecting everything is going as planned. Yeah I can understand how some would be utterly confused by that. At least after the last delay post, about having no date something should have been sent out.

Crystevil - 3 months ago

Bla Bla blah........

ThatBoi - 3 months ago

Just send an email with delays instead of having to hunt around for whats a happening.

Karolus - 3 months ago

surprise surprise

Wise_Insights - 3 months ago

There seems to several things going on: (1) a clear separation of producer decisions from owner/CEO, (2) gap in strategic planning, story points, burn down, definition of done (promise long deliver short vs. promise short and deliver long), (3) communication controls, consistency, or change management.

Lord_Greystoke - 3 months ago
@Wise_Insights:

Posted By Wise_Insights at 07:04 AM - Fri May 24 2019

There seems to several things going on: (1) a clear separation of producer decisions from owner/CEO, (2) gap in strategic planning, story points, burn down, definition of done (promise long deliver short vs. promise short and deliver long), (3) communication controls, consistency, or change management.

Snipehunter spear tackled Caspian and now has him bound and gagged in the janitors closet, where he belongs.

Probably why SBS is acting more like an actual company as of late, than a 'Pump and Dump' SEC fraudulent scheme.

I, for one, welcome our new OverLord.

Long Live The King!

ZeroCool - 3 months ago

Possibly because it was not added to 'Featured Posts' but if like me you check the top of 'Staff Posts' daily then you should have caught it.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@ZeroCool:

Posted By ZeroCool at 2:37 PM - Thu May 23 2019

Possibly because it was not added to 'Featured Posts' but if like me you check the top of 'Staff Posts' daily then you should have caught it.

I think this got bumped out of staff posts last week. It's not in mine anymore.

XSDevastation - 3 months ago

This says 12th of May, why am I only just seeing it?

LordBronn - 3 months ago

Still think this should only be a test of D&SS system, and have the official one done 1 month before KoE.

Hieronymus - 3 months ago
@LordBronn:

Posted By LordBronn at 4:16 PM - Wed May 22 2019

Still think this should only be a test of D&SS system, and have the official one done 1 month before KoE.

I totally agree, especially because all the work for world generation is not even complete (we don't even have footage or screenshots of all the biomes, all the architectural styles, etc) but I think at this point, a lot of people are demanding something to validate their investment in this game, and the studio can't postpone this event without serious repercussions. Once they set the D&SS snowball in motion, as premature as it was, it got a momentum of its own.

Basagna - 3 months ago

Looking forward to this, but when do we get to see claimed areas?

Vilucide - 3 months ago
@Basagna:

Posted By Basagna at 12:59 PM - Wed May 22 2019

Looking forward to this, but when do we get to see claimed areas?

You can see kingdoms in this post, they've all been claimed: Domain Selections: Monarchs

Bann Stormforge - 3 months ago

This was 10 days ago. What is the status? When can me and my mates see the map w/ already claimed areas so we can know where to place our 2 towns and stronghold and start reaching out and connecting with the respective lords we wish to live under? Seems like announcing D&SS at all was a little premature.

Marovec - 3 months ago

Maybe I misunderstood...I thought they meant they literally could not use discord, not that it was another dip into the official vs unofficial cesspool we have gone back and forth over for years...

😎

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 03:38 AM - Thu May 23 2019

Maybe I misunderstood...I thought they meant they literally could not use discord, not that it was another dip into the official vs unofficial cesspool we have gone back and forth over for years...

It's funny catching you say on discord "I'm all for SBS changing". But that seems to be only things you push for. Not whatever anyone else says. Them sharing so much stuff on discord vs sharing crap all here. Has been an issue for some, way longer than anything else.

Bottom line. I can't see why SBS doesn't use both platforms. While I have no idea why some people defend them so much on only using one. Information being easy to find for everyone, should be something SBS should want to do. Not have to go to an third party source to find out about the game.

captrench - 3 months ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 02:43 AM - Thu May 23 2019

Posted By Marovec at 03:38 AM - Thu May 23 2019

Maybe I misunderstood...I thought they meant they literally could not use discord, not that it was another dip into the official vs unofficial cesspool we have gone back and forth over for years...

It's funny catching you say on discord "I'm all for SBS changing". But that seems to be only things you push for. Not whatever anyone else says. Them sharing so much stuff on discord vs sharing crap all here. Has been an issue for some, way longer than anything else.

Bottom line. I can't see why SBS doesn't use both platforms. While I have no idea why some people defend them so much on only using one. Information being easy to find for everyone, should be something SBS should want to do. Not have to go to an third party source to find out about the game.

I think the game specific forum is the better default for any and all "official"game information. Historically this is what people have been used to in many other games, and this relates to what i see as the main issue here. Consistency.

All that really matters is consistency, so people know where to look for updates reliably. Not everyone has the time to keep checking multiple platforms at the relevant times and context translating between "thats just chat" and "thats official". Its unnecessarily unhelpful.

That said, other platforms have come a long way since the days when a website was the default. Twitter and Facebook are not good platforms to force people to engage with although it makes sense companies have a presence on them to maximise reach.

Discord on the other hand has been a positive disruptive element in how companies communicate, so i think there is room now for some flexibility in the old mantra "must be a website".

Finally, as a caveat, keeping two platforms updated, whilst not technically difficult, does increase the risk of mistakes and discrepancies between them. Considering how hair trigger audiences can be at the slightest miscommunication or confusion, its understandable if some decided it was an unnecessary risk.

Bottom line, all that really matters is consistency, so people know where to get the latest and most accurate data. Some people are juggling busy families, jobs or just have very limited time. Gamers are a wide demographic nowadays, not just teenage adolescent males with all the time in the world.

It pays to be consistent.

EDIT - I'm not arguing against anyones quoted points specifically that i'm aware of. I'm more "joining in". If i am seen as countering any opinions quoted i'm happy to chinwag about it regardless.

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@captrench:

Posted By captrench at 3:52 PM - Thu May 23 2019

Bottom line, all that really matters is consistency, so people know where to get the latest and most accurate data. Some people are juggling busy families, jobs or just have very limited time. Gamers are a wide demographic nowadays, not just teenage adolescent males with all the time in the world.

It pays to be consistent.

I can agree with basically everything you have said. While I would rather them use the forums, I personally find it easier to use, than discord. The problem with SBS using discord is, Caspian always falls back on "nothing said on discord is official" if something is misquoted or something doesn't happen in his favour. As an example, anytime dates have been said on discord. It's always "well that was just a guess". He can get away with using that line. Where on the forums he can't.

So yeah discord isn't a bad platform to use, if anything, for many people it maybe better and easier to use. So either SBS needs to change their stance on things said on discord and/or they just need to improve how they share info.

baviasi - 3 months ago

My only question is why there are two Hrothi status bars in the one graphic. I guess there are also two yellow pile icons under resources, so maybe this means that there are two Hrothi populations represented?

A little more info on how to balance population and resources would be appreciated, so that we can understand what "too much" and "too little" means in this context. Thanks!

Marovec - 3 months ago

Why cant you use Coe discord?

Malais - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 10:03 PM - Tue May 21 2019

Why cant you use Coe discord?

Marovec you’ve been around long enough to know what’s posted on Discord’s not official.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 11:03 PM - Tue May 21 2019

Why cant you use Coe discord?

"Don't quote discord to people because discord is a place for unofficial casual communication from the devs not for serious and/or official updates" - Caspian

I want an official update, not a half-update that is worth as much as my toilet paper because if it changes or even is just flat out false he's going to fall back on the "discord is not official" meme.

MissDee - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Because not everyone is in discord

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 1:03 PM - Wed May 22 2019

Why cant you use Coe discord?

What's so bad about encouraging SBS to use both discord and their forums about updating people?

Poingfaust - 3 months ago

We are all perfectly imperfect. Often we key on someone else's perceived fault when it is amplified by our own. The cool head wins.

baviasi - 3 months ago
@Poingfaust:

+1

Tinarius - 3 months ago

This is nothing new. I pointed this out YEARS ago. Just another case where Caspian will have it Caspian's way regardless of what is best for his customers or market. The only conclusion I can come to is its an ego thing.

Stelaphina - 3 months ago

Also, I don't think it unreasonable to expect him to review and engage on his own post. He should be reviewing and providing some feedback. The purpose of forums is engagement.

Marovec - 3 months ago

Just so everyone is clear - Caspian hasn't been silent, he has made quite a few comments in Discord.

That he isn't posting here is a dead horse, stop beating it. You all know he comments in Discord, go do a From:Caspian and From:Snipe search every once and a while.

It would take less time than it takes to come here and make a post complaining about them not giving updates.

Malais - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 5/20/2019 10:28:46 PM

Just so everyone is clear - Caspian hasn't been silent, he has made quite a few comments in Discord.

That he isn't posting here is a dead horse, stop beating it. You all know he comments in Discord, go do a From:Caspian and From:Snipe search every once and a while.

It would take less time than it takes to come here and make a post complaining about them not giving updates.

Except the last time we copy and pasted something he said in discord as “official” he had a cow and a small cat coming to the forums getting mad at folks who take things said in discord as official.

In this mate you are absolutely wrong. He needs to suck it up and make an official remark of where were are on the forums.

If nothings changed and they are still working on it so be it stop dropping “official” responses on an unofficial source.

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 10:01 AM - Tue May 21 2019

Posted By Marovec at 5/20/2019 10:28:46 PM

Just so everyone is clear - Caspian hasn't been silent, he has made quite a few comments in Discord.

That he isn't posting here is a dead horse, stop beating it. You all know he comments in Discord, go do a From:Caspian and From:Snipe search every once and a while.

It would take less time than it takes to come here and make a post complaining about them not giving updates.

Except the last time we copy and pasted something he said in discord as “official” he had a cow and a small cat coming to the forums getting mad at folks who take things said in discord as official.

In this mate you are absolutely wrong. He needs to suck it up and make an official remark of where were are on the forums.

If nothings changed and they are still working on it so be it stop dropping “official” responses on an unofficial source.

I am thinking that Takeda_Shinukage meant a dev or mod should copy and paste it here. Sad really that we get no announcements here but we have to go to discord to get unofficial ones.

Having not gone to Discord to read the unofficial propaganda, this is starting to look more and more like another dropped promise. I am expecting the announcement any day now that domain selection will be pushed back to some unknown date in the future. If so, once again something that was days and hours from release several times is looking like it will be dropped and or changed to something completely different to be released at some unknown date in the future.

Several times now we were told this was days from release and yet here we are getting close to a month later with no release. WTF is going on?

  1. Is SBS stroking us when they say any day now and just buying time?

  2. Does SBS studio have no idea at all how long it takes to make anything they work on?

3.Does SBS even know whats wrong and how to fix it?

My personal opinion based on nothing other than speculation is 50% #2. 30% number 1. #20 number 3.

HolyAvengerOne - 3 months ago
@RedDoggybone:

Posted By RedDoggybone at 1:46 PM - Tue May 21 2019

I am thinking that Takeda_Shinukage meant a dev or mod should copy and paste it here. Sad really that we get no announcements here but we have to go to discord to get unofficial ones.

+1

Especially for those of us who can't use the CoE Discord.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 6:28 PM - Mon May 20 2019

Just so everyone is clear - Caspian hasn't been silent, he has made quite a few comments in Discord.

That he isn't posting here is a dead horse, stop beating it. You all know he comments in Discord, go do a From:Caspian and From:Snipe search every once and a while.

It would take less time than it takes to come here and make a post complaining about them not giving updates.

So the official updates are on a medium he said was not official. I love how it has built in bull-shit protection: "If I'm right it's official why didn't you guys look at the damn discord, if it's wrong wtf is wrong with you I said it's unofficial."

I guess taking 30 seconds to copy paste an official update to an official medium is too taxing and would impede development. Ok that was me being an ass but seriously though, is there really a valid argument again'st Crl+c and Ctrl+v any major DSS updates / progress to this thread??? I mean even further isn't that the entire purpose of the #soul-chamber channel? Putting developers general discussion discord quotes into a more official viewing place so everyone can see? Why is that at least not being done? Idk.

This isn't beating a dead horse. That's not how the saying works. The horse represents an issue or conflict. Meaning the horse is not dead until the issue is. If official updates are still being primarily delivered in an unofficial source than the horse is still alive. I just feel like for someone who knows he has an issue keeping morale and PR up through conflict, there is sure a bare bare bare minimum being done to fix it and that is what is more irritating to me.

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 08:28 AM - Tue May 21 2019

Just so everyone is clear - Caspian hasn't been silent, he has made quite a few comments in Discord.

Nothing beats unofficial comments. He keeps going on about never quote or take anything he says there as official. So you think, if there was any update. He would come here to officially update everyone.

HolyAvengerOne - 3 months ago

edit: also, agreed ^^

mightyfish - 3 months ago

The thing is, they're in a really tight spot if they're not ready today. We've established that nobody wants to hear another meaningless deadline, but also silence while the previous deadline slips by is aggravating. I guess it would be better to provide a status than not.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@mightyfish:

Posted By mightyfish at 1:44 PM - Mon May 20 2019

I guess it would be better to provide a status than not.

Agreed, they said they would give updates but it's been pretty quiet. Would be as simple as a comment on this thread from Caspian saying

- Here's what we finished last week:

- Here's what were working on:

- Here's what we need to be finished before maps can release:

This should all already be on his notes as the CEO or on a team lead's notes somewhere in the studio. Take those, shorten them for abstraction, post them on a comment to this thread.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago

@Sullen Giving dates so short such as weeks is just about as bad as giving the day.

However, they said they are going to open the maps for review when they are done before everything else. Then they needed to finish all the other systems. Then monarchs have time to finish their selections. This will likely be ~2 weeks process imo. Then dukes need to pick. So you'll know about 3 weeks before you need to pick.This is if they don't announce the view-only maps before releasing them. If they do then you'll know about a month+ in advance for the county level. Should be plenty of time.

Sullen - 3 months ago

I am growing more and more apprehensive. First it was a one-week delay and then now a two-week today with no target in mind. We have not received any information except for upgraded post on the 27th. I am not looking for a drop-dead date I'm looking for a general window, is it 1 week 2 weeks or is it going to be announced on Discord only and the members on the website will be left out? After donating over $1, 000 I would hate to lose my position in land selection due to poor communication. All I'm asking is for any information that goes on Discord we also posted on the website. And since DSS is a very important deal a little more communication would be appreciated.

Jute - 3 months ago

Will we get a new message on the website letting us know our new select dates while Monarchs are picking? For me, I have flexibility until May 29th. After that date I’ll have to request PTO to get access to a PC to grab my county.

FoolUnknowing - 3 months ago

Are we there yet?

Blazzer - 3 months ago

It like the community are the donkey in Shrek 2 "are we there yet?" and Caspian is Shrek "No"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vUBsTJYK28

Blazzer - 3 months ago

It will come when they are done, there is no point too keep bothering them about a date.

KypiqStomper - 3 months ago

soon tm

Leilah - 3 months ago

All I can do/say is "sigh"

Zampher - 3 months ago

Any news yet regarding map release.

Alserian - 3 months ago

awesome getting closer and closer to launch.....

Leilah - 3 months ago
@Alserian:

Posted By Alserian at 04:43 AM - Wed May 15 2019

awesome getting closer and closer to launch.....

whoa

odd fella - 3 months ago

God knows what damage this has done to the potential sales of Kversary and future promos.

I made the mistake of rearranging my life around these deadlines that were not only set for the community but also set for the developer teams too.

I won't be making that mistake again come A2 and exposition.

Like many others in the community, I also have my eye on other games.

Zsiledifyshk - 3 months ago

He started giving dates again because the community asked him to provide them. It's a double-edged sword, really. The reality is that the game is still in development and all dates should be looked at as a target date and not a hard date until Caspian confirms it.

Dekul - 3 months ago
@Zsiledifyshk:

Posted By Zsiledifyshk at 9:04 PM - Tue May 14 2019

He started giving dates again because the community asked him to provide them. It's a double-edged sword, really. The reality is that the game is still in development and all dates should be looked at as a target date and not a hard date until Caspian confirms it.

In this case it's a little worse than just missing their own target date... since DSS requires every backer with a title to be here for a short window of time in order to claim something worth hundreds or thousands of dollars... it forces thousands of people to rearrange their schedules, and if they keep posting a date, and keep missing it, that forces thousands of people to rearrange their schedules again and again. This is a lot worse than just missing a patch date, or an alpha release date, or something where nobody is really required to be there the moment it opens.

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago
@Zsiledifyshk:

Posted By Zsiledifyshk at 10:04 PM - Tue May 14 2019

@Zsildifyshk I don't know if your late to the party or not but he did confirm these dates. Thats what the fighting is all about.

He started giving dates again because the community asked him to provide them. It's a double-edged sword, really. The reality is that the game is still in development and all dates should be looked at as a target date and not a hard date until Caspian confirms it.

Talk about a double-edged sword. He just finished saying he dosn't pay attention to the community other than sales yet somehow he responded to the community asking for dates again. So how is it he managed to see that but not this?

And I wonder about that comment in general. This was a much bigger stink than anything here before and he never noticed. And I really don't remember people asking for dates all that much after he decided to curtail them a bit. And why he curtailed them a bit was because of similar problems as this one. So, it sort of makes no sense he would open that door again just because a few people asked for it. I mean "maybe" a few people like now were asking for dates but nothing at all like the people asking him to stop now.

Naw, unless there was a ton of people on discord asking for dates I am not buying this comment. I think he just got lazy and fell back on old habits. I remember when he first hired Vye and she was much more involved with PR. I clearly remember her in several videos trying to stop him from saying too much. He would start to say something and then look at her and she would indicate in some way for him not to say it.

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Zsiledifyshk:

Posted By Zsiledifyshk at 12:04 PM - Wed May 15 2019

He started giving dates again because the community asked him to provide them. It's a double-edged sword, really. The reality is that the game is still in development and all dates should be looked at as a target date and not a hard date until Caspian confirms it.

The problem with saying this, which community asked for dates? Because I can tell you, many high backers have been begging him for ages to never give dates.

But true, dates aren't overall bad. It mostly fall on the community. Caspian says anything on discord, even though it's unofficial and at best, a very wild guess. People run with that info like a dog with a bone. Spreading it everywhere. Almost like he shouldn't say anything on discord. It's all just random guessing anyway. Complete waste of everyone time.

Malais - 3 months ago

@Takeda_Shinukage

Trust me I’m right there with you. I even started a thread asking him to hire a CM so we’d have a buffer between Caspian and the community. Someone to be an advocate for us so we don’t have to have a monarch blast him in public before he gets it.

But if we want the game to exist we have to give him a shot. That’s not the same as giving him a pass. This is basically my last chance on sbs. If they fix it now since they get it I’m good. They fail the same way again and I’m done. I believe a lot of people feel the same way. It’s just time to let the current frustration go and let them move on. They hang themselves again hey we know we tried and gave them the Benefit of the doubt when Caspian said he got it.

Boils down to folks level of interest in the game. Put up with the new company growing in terms of ability and PR skills or bail now. I don’t see them as lying to us per se more so not knowing how to handle the situation.

Malais - 3 months ago

@RedDoggybone

Have you ever had a child ask you why when you tell them something?

Don’t touch to stove!

Why?

Some kids get it and don’t but occasionally there is that one who despite being told the stove is hot doesn’t believe it till they get burned themselves.

I think this is kinda that case. Caspian believed the community wasn’t used to seeing the sausage being made and that’s what set off the firestorm. I’m sure he was told of the general mood. Just like you’d tell a child the stove is hot but he didn’t believe it was anything more than MMOers complaining.

I still think that is a very poor showing from the CEO and makes the company look bad again a buffer like a CM coulda prevented this but whatever baby steps. Perhaps now he realizes he’s not quite as in touch with the community as his time in discord lead him to believe.

As I said we shall see.

Doesn’t mean we should continue to flog him or sbs over this. It’s done and time to move on.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 3:31 PM - Tue May 14 2019

I think this is kinda that case. Caspian believed the community wasn’t used to seeing the sausage being made and that’s what set off the firestorm.

It's been that way since KS which is kind of worrying for some considering its been 4 years.He has always appeared to be from the perspective that a lot the criticism comes from some misunderstanding or you doing something wrong instead of something fundamentally being wrong until near the entire community jumps on him. This is a core reason his PR has always been a nightmare when something goes wrong. People don't want the community to make thread after thread and post after post about an issue but that is historically the only way to tell him that we actually DO understand the system and fundamentally don't like it.

I can only assume this comes from trying to re-define a new genre to where he has gotten used to telling doubters that "you just don't get it". Which yeah, to be fair, you kind of have to do when making something completely new but at the same time that attitude seems to have leaked into every part of his rationale when dealing with community conflict. Until the community commences attack of threads and he's like "oh wait, you guys might actually just not like this, I misunderstood".

Like I can appreciate the attitude from you of "he's fixed it, lets wait and see" but I'm sure you can see how after 4 years of this exact issue people are skeptical. Everytime the game gets closer to launches, a relapse of this issue will result in bigger backlash. Back in the day, all it affected was concepts and ideas. Then it was impacting website features. Now it's impacting DSS and DSS Dependent feature launches. In the future, it's going to affect core gameplay mechanic implementation. It only get's worse from here if the same issue keeps repeating. It's not the same "exact" issue but it's the same stem of the issue.

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago

The "giving him a pass" comments I made were more directed at the other two posters I originally responded to and the others that continually do those things.

To be honest Malais, I feel we are on the same chapter if not the same page. It's just that I may be a few pages ahead of you as to being tired of this nonsense. And as Tinarius said, it's not exactly a good thing that if he is telling the truth and truly didn't know. That he is that out of the loop about whats happening on his own website.

Could it be he is spending way too much time on discord and chatting them up and not enough time on here? And if that is happening your telling me the mods, ambassadors and devs that do come here are not telling him there is a problem? I mean we all saw how this web site exploded the last week or so and he only became aware of it after he went on discord? Really?

Atogrim - 3 months ago
@RedDoggybone:

Posted By RedDoggybone at 8:57 PM - Tue May 14 2019

The "giving him a pass" comments I made were more directed at the other two posters I originally responded to and the others that continually do those things.

Well, I can not "continually do those things" because I am back since, what, a week? And I never said to give him a pass. Are you making that up on the fly or are you just so pissed (Disclaimer: I do not doubt your reasons to be) that you let fly without reading stuff?

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago
@Atogrim:

Posted By Atogrim at 03:54 AM - Wed May 15 2019

Posted By RedDoggybone at 8:57 PM - Tue May 14 2019

The "giving him a pass" comments I made were more directed at the other two posters I originally responded to and the others that continually do those things.

Well, I can not "continually do those things" because I am back since, what, a week? And I never said to give him a pass. Are you making that up on the fly or are you just so pissed (Disclaimer: I do not doubt your reasons to be) that you let fly without reading stuff?

I must apologize once again. You and Xeon posted back to back and I keep lumping your two post together in my head as one. I will try to stop doing that as it is not fair to you.

Atogrim - 3 months ago
@RedDoggybone:

Posted By RedDoggybone at 11:17 AM - Wed May 15 2019

Posted By Atogrim at 03:54 AM - Wed May 15 2019

Posted By RedDoggybone at 8:57 PM - Tue May 14 2019

The "giving him a pass" comments I made were more directed at the other two posters I originally responded to and the others that continually do those things.

Well, I can not "continually do those things" because I am back since, what, a week? And I never said to give him a pass. Are you making that up on the fly or are you just so pissed (Disclaimer: I do not doubt your reasons to be) that you let fly without reading stuff?

I must apologize once again. You and Xeon posted back to back and I keep lumping your two post together in my head as one. I will try to stop doing that as it is not fair to you.

Fair enough. Thank you.

Malais - 3 months ago

@Marovec, Tinarius, Reddoggybone.

I agree with not giving them more money if people aren’t satisfied or don’t believe this is a turning point. I haven’t donated for for a long time and doubt I will till I see an alpha at least.

The big issue this time seems to be perspective. Missing a date in development is expected and not a big deal. This is why caspian reacted the way he did initially. Sure it looks bad but to him it’s the cost of doing business. It wasn’t until the call when folks told him those who have to be present for something (picking a domain, surname Ext) felt like we were getting jerked around. Having to schedule our lives so our communities could have the best starting point that could be provided.

It’s my understanding he didn’t realize what effect sbs missing dates was having on those who needed to be present for a deadline that then got pushed back. Hence the backlash on the notice of the pushback was as bad or worse than the delay itself.

I wasn’t on the call so I didn’t hear it first hand so take the above for what you will.

To me it screams shortsightedness and a lack of common sense an inability to see outside his own box. But given the tone of the end of the call and how things were worked through everyone was left with a choice believe he’s finally figured it out and will be better or don’t.

Given that everyone who is frustrated wants the game to succeed otherwise we wouldn’t still be here after the messes that have come before you have to ask yourself what value does the name calling and negativity add to the situation. We were heard and now we should give the man a chance to actually put this new knowledge to work.

If we end up right back here again like ever then yeah I’ll take my leave and write the game and sbs off. But this was a come to Jesus moment for sbs and I think they get that. To me this is their last chance. Doesn’t mean a development push back or a key date sliding will make me leave. That I expect. But the communication and how delicately that pushback happens will determine my response.

I don’t think we should give him or sbs a pass for past missteps. Nor does glossing over them help anyone. But by the same token he said he gets it. So give him a shot or don’t. At this point the complaints have been heard and rehashed to the point we are reaching meme quality here. Vote with your wallet like I am and not spend another dime until you are comfortable.

Bitching about the same thing over and over on the forums doesn’t help much.

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago

@Malais. Not trying to be argumentive but it's more than a few folks when just about every supportive post and threads from the devs are getting negative votes. Thats never happened here before and it's a sign that the majority of the fan base is pissed.

I agree it is a dead horse subject now. What sparked my response and what is continuing to spark my responses is the apologist here that keep wanting to give Caspian a pass for the same mistakes he keeps making. Stop making excuses for him screwing up. Sure, be supportive but every time you guys give him a pass and say he will do better next time he really dosn't do better the next time. Hold his feet to the fire until he actually does do better next time or I am telling you right now, in 6 months time we will be back on here again complaining about the same release date issues.

SBS has missed so many release dates I need them to show me they can hit a few first before I have faith that they will hit them in the future without ever having done so to this date. He needs to prove to us he can do it. Not us just giving him a pass and feeling confident he will hit the next one just because he said he would.

NO MORE PASSES! We have been giving SBS passes on the release dates since this web site opened and they still have yet to hit one. Why does he deserve another pass?

By soured, I didn't mean turn against. No one wants to see the game fail but for the first time a majority are willing to show their displeasure with how SBS is handling things. By soured I meant enough people finally spoke up to wake Caspian up from whatever coma he has been in about the release dates for him to take notice. The question is will he stick to what he says now for the duration.

And I am sorry but I agree with Marovec. I am just not buying he didn't realize this was a problem until just now. We have been mildly complaining about the missed release dates for years. Until just now, it wasn't a big enough problem for him to address is what I believe. But then again he made an attempt a while ago to fix how release dates were handled in the future and yet here we are today. Because after a few months he stopped sticking to the plan and is now back to his old ways. So yeah, give him a chance to fix it this time too but remember this is the second time we gave him a chance to fix it.

@Atogrim Sorry. I was combining answering two people with one post and also because I have said this so many times before I left it out this time.

I am not saying any release dates at all. I am saying give very general release dates. Like this will hopefully come out in this quarter. This hopefully will come out in that quarter. Give a map of what you have completed and what you are working on now and what will come next. If something is slipping past the release quarter tell us ahead of time and not one day before you delay it. Then when the item is COMPLETELY FINISHED AND TESTED, then and only then announce it's release date. Notify us 2-4 weeks before the date you plan to release it.

Of course, we need release dates. Just make them accurate. And to be honest, I have not seen many people say any release dates at all. Just variations of what I outlined above.

Marovec - 3 months ago

@Malais

I'm sorry, but as much as I want to give SBS a "restart" pass, this statement really drives me nuts:

"So while this is the same mistake they’ve made before the outcome could be different this time because Caspian admitted he didn’t get it before but does now. So you are left with a choice."

How could he "not get it"?

  • Is it because Serp isn't telling him all the input from the community? I have a hard time believing that.

  • Is it because the monarchs have not made the opinions of their community abundantly clear? I am 99.9% confident they have.

  • Is it because, like he said, he doesn't actually listen to the community, and only pays attention to metrics and if people are spending money in the store? Huh, maybe this is it...as he admitted.

Which, frankly, pisses me off. We have heard from day one that they aren't just about making money, that they want to revolutionize the genre and create something of quality.

Are yet, here we are, hearing the CEO say he only pays attention to how people vote with their wallets.

Yeah, that is a fantastic representation of how the community feels. Heaven forbid people want to still support the game, while maintaining the confidence that their concerns are actually heard.

Well, now we know better - that wasn't the case.

He has now drawn the line in the sand. The only input they actually listen to is money. Not feedback, not conversations, not representation of their community by the monarchs - just money and site traffic.

Additionally, if Caspian doesn't stick to his "change" (despite not actually saying anything he hasn't already said before, I guess this time we believe him), then I know there are community members who will be aggressively working towards spreading the word to NOT spend money on this game, as they have admitted that is the only thing they respond to.

So, fine.

After this, I simply won't spend any money until they have produced something that warrants investing in.

  • KSversary promo that I had been saving for? Nope, I think I will buy into Pantheon instead.

  • The reverse auctions I was considering looking into with the wife? Nah, I think Camelot Unchained is coming along nicely, maybe I'll dig in to that some more.

  • Future promotions with meaningless fluff that god knows whether we will actually have implemented as indicates? I believe I will check out Star Citizen - have some community members saying some good things there.

Game on, Caspian. You pushed the community in this direction, you reap what you sow.

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 02:43 AM - Wed May 15 2019

  • Is it because, like he said, he doesn't actually listen to the community, and only pays attention to metrics and if people are spending money in the store? Huh, maybe this is it...as he admitted.

Can I assume this came from the voice chat that Caspian did on discord?

I feel a few different ways about that. They are an business, so how much money they make, will always be important to them. No matter what they say. They aren't a charity after all.

Yet you can't really judge solo on just that. I have a mate, who every promotion has brought a few things. Yet he is very frustrated by the current events. Doesn't plan to stop buying things either. So seems like, he should stop supporting them with money, since showing his frustrated anywhere else. Will simply be pushed to the side.

Also shows me I have wasted my time on these forums. So much for SBS saying "post your concerns on the forums, we really do read them". Which I suppose reading them and having any affect are two different things. Something that annoyed me about the voice chat. People made threads saying the problem and who agreed/give solutions too. I know Adam gave good solutions both on discord/here, so again, how Caspian didn't notice any problem till he got on voice chat.. that just confuses me really badly.

In the end, SBS should be getting their feedback from everywhere. Getting it from only one place is bad, that's a given.

The point of this post, I am now worried if things run smoothly, but Caspian leaks something via discord and see it has no effect on his data. Well he may think it's all fine and keep doing it. I'm curious if that's why he started giving out dates again, after last time promised to stop doing it. The community seems pretty dam forgetful and very forgiving. So, if this happens a few months down the line. Well, it just be the same discussion all over again.

Malais - 3 months ago

@Tinarius

I’ve been around since before the KS. I remember their mistakes very well and call them out when I see the same pattern. This time Caspian jumped on a call with a few folks who all aired their differences and frustrations. Caspian admitted he didn’t understand the problem until the call.

So while this is the same mistake they’ve made before the outcome could be different this time because Caspian admitted he didn’t get it before but does now. So you are left with a choice.

Continue beating on them for a mistake they made but are attempting to do better and grow from or give them a chance to do better.

Choice is yours. I choose to take the man at his word. They fail again in the same way or go back on it, there will be a mass exodus and I think they get it now.

So while this is the same pattern sbs has never before admitted to the problem like they have now.

Leilah - 3 months ago
@Malais:

@Malais

Caspian always admits defeat a day or two before it is set to release and then what does he do? he jumps on discord pleading with the community even though most aren't even there and that's straight bullshit and you know it.

Everything people suggested was on the forums days prior suggesting the same shit.

So it takes him going on discord (unofficial channel AGAIN) to speak with this so called community, tell me was there a notice posted stating he was going to speak with the community as a whole or was this a play on the people he knows who will support him/sbs no matter what he says? Cause I didn't get NOTICE did you?.

@Malais

"Continue beating on them for a mistake they made but are attempting to do better and grow from or give them a chance to do better. "

What are they doing better? All I see is repetitiveness and not in a good way.

  1. what do you see them doing better at?
  2. what do you see has changed from a year or two ago?

@Malais

"I choose to take the man at his word"

Really? what word, everything he has said and done has failed so tell me what word are you taking him at? want to explain?

Your post was nonsensical..

Tinarius - 3 months ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 09:29 AM - Tue May 14 2019

@Tinarius

I’ve been around since before the KS. I remember their mistakes very well and call them out when I see the same pattern. This time Caspian jumped on a call with a few folks who all aired their differences and frustrations. Caspian admitted he didn’t understand the problem until the call.

So while this is the same mistake they’ve made before the outcome could be different this time because Caspian admitted he didn’t get it before but does now. So you are left with a choice.

Continue beating on them for a mistake they made but are attempting to do better and grow from or give them a chance to do better.

Choice is yours. I choose to take the man at his word. They fail again in the same way or go back on it, there will be a mass exodus and I think they get it now.

So while this is the same pattern sbs has never before admitted to the problem like they have now.

Do you honestly think he didn't know about the dissension? It is his M.O. Deflect fault to save face. He's done this every . single . time.

But let's entertain the idea that he didn't know. That is yet another bad sign of his leadership. He should be abundantly clear that if anything is to even remotely disrupt his project, he should be made aware of it post haste, and if he wasn't made aware, the person responsible should be on the chopping block. This is a for profit business he's running after all, he should be running it accordingly.

Glosterian - 3 months ago

Posted By Malais at 3:03 PM - Tue May 14 2019

The majority of the fan base is not sour toward sbs. Just a few folks have taken their frustration and let it get out of hand and bleed over Into a very dark place.

I personally have been a very vocal critic of sbs’s communication and how they have structured their community management setup along with their horrid ability to gage completion dates.

Yet I’m not sour. I don’t believe they are telling us lies and such. Most of the people I know and communities I’m in are frustrated but still believe in the idea of CoE and believe that if anyone can deliver it it is sbs.

I would gather that even those who have 10k or more pledged who may have let some rough feelings fly of late aren’t soured just have their frustration multiplied by their pledge.

Those who have begged and pleaded for dates to make more sense have been heard. We just have to wait and see if it sinks in and creates real change for the better.

The perception from sbs was a bit naive in that they believed it was expected in development dates would slip and wasn’t a biggie. They now know the difference between a milestone date in development that doesn’t require the community’s input on those that do and how much more impactful missing the latter is to moral.

Beating the dead horse over and over and jumping on the hyperbole bandwagon is kinda pointless now.

We were heard.

Now it’s time to sit back and give sbs the space to actually change. Not start tearing them down and making accusations we have zero proof of. If nothing changes and no forward momentum is seen in a couple months sure have at them again. But the community needs to point out actual flaws and missteps not get into the mob mentality of sbs is lying. There is zero proof of this. Only proof they are new and have a LOT to learn still as a company.

In short cut them some slack for now. We were heard.

Just have to say - Excellent comment Malais. Sums it up exactly. Would have upvoted by +100 if I could

Malais - 3 months ago

The majority of the fan base is not sour toward sbs. Just a few folks have taken their frustration and let it get out of hand and bleed over Into a very dark place.

I personally have been a very vocal critic of sbs’s communication and how they have structured their community management setup along with their horrid ability to gage completion dates.

Yet I’m not sour. I don’t believe they are telling us lies and such. Most of the people I know and communities I’m in are frustrated but still believe in the idea of CoE and believe that if anyone can deliver it it is sbs.

I would gather that even those who have 10k or more pledged who may have let some rough feelings fly of late aren’t soured just have their frustration multiplied by their pledge.

Those who have begged and pleaded for dates to make more sense have been heard. We just have to wait and see if it sinks in and creates real change for the better.

The perception from sbs was a bit naive in that they believed it was expected in development dates would slip and wasn’t a biggie. They now know the difference between a milestone date in development that doesn’t require the community’s input on those that do and how much more impactful missing the latter is to moral.

Beating the dead horse over and over and jumping on the hyperbole bandwagon is kinda pointless now.

We were heard.

Now it’s time to sit back and give sbs the space to actually change. Not start tearing them down and making accusations we have zero proof of. If nothing changes and no forward momentum is seen in a couple months sure have at them again. But the community needs to point out actual flaws and missteps not get into the mob mentality of sbs is lying. There is zero proof of this. Only proof they are new and have a LOT to learn still as a company.

In short cut them some slack for now. We were heard.

Tinarius - 3 months ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 07:03 AM - Tue May 14 2019

The majority of the fan base is not sour toward sbs. Just a few folks have taken their frustration and let it get out of hand and bleed over Into a very dark place.

I personally have been a very vocal critic of sbs’s communication and how they have structured their community management setup along with their horrid ability to gage completion dates.

Yet I’m not sour. I don’t believe they are telling us lies and such. Most of the people I know and communities I’m in are frustrated but still believe in the idea of CoE and believe that if anyone can deliver it it is sbs.

I would gather that even those who have 10k or more pledged who may have let some rough feelings fly of late aren’t soured just have their frustration multiplied by their pledge.

Those who have begged and pleaded for dates to make more sense have been heard. We just have to wait and see if it sinks in and creates real change for the better.

The perception from sbs was a bit naive in that they believed it was expected in development dates would slip and wasn’t a biggie. They now know the difference between a milestone date in development that doesn’t require the community’s input on those that do and how much more impactful missing the latter is to moral.

Beating the dead horse over and over and jumping on the hyperbole bandwagon is kinda pointless now.

We were heard.

Now it’s time to sit back and give sbs the space to actually change. Not start tearing them down and making accusations we have zero proof of. If nothing changes and no forward momentum is seen in a couple months sure have at them again. But the community needs to point out actual flaws and missteps not get into the mob mentality of sbs is lying. There is zero proof of this. Only proof they are new and have a LOT to learn still as a company.

In short cut them some slack for now. We were heard.

You had me, right up until I remembered this is not the first, second, third, fourth or even fifth time they've done this. They don't learn. Have you not seen the pattern?

They do what they want until their cash cow is threatened and that is when Caspian comes out with a single tear rolling down his cheek, reaffirming that things will be different,and they are -- for a minute -- and then they revert to their old ways.

I mean how many times do you let someone punch you in the face before you say enough?

I guess we'll all have our own opinions of how this should be handled but so far my predictions have been spot on.

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago

@Atogrim and Xoen. In SBS's case, I totally disagree with you about missing the hard dates. Surely at this point even you have serious doubts they will hit Any hard date they announce? This has been going on since this site opened if not longer. Maybe they have but off hand I can not think of any hard date they actually hit. Every time we make excuses and don't show our ire when they miss a date we enable them to do it again because they see there are no real consequences with their fan base for doing so. And I am sorry but I just don't understand the logic in wanting dates you know most likely will be wrong. The whole point of giving a hard date is so we can plan around it. If the date is always wrong, it serves no purpose. By definition, missing a hard date no longer makes it a hard date. It is now a tentative date.

We finally showed them there are consequences.

We are angry as hell for this not improving.

They have a reputation of not being believable in any date they give and it has started to leak over into what other things are they telling us that is not accurate and maybe we shouldn't believe either?

If you don't think missing these dates hasn't seriously damaged their ability to sell us things you really need to wake up.

These missed dates have turned the majority of the fan base sour on them. Just look at all the down votes supporters and the devs are getting as proof.

The missed dates have turned the hype into a running joke and a negative. People see the hype as nothing more than hype now because so far they have not delivered on any of it. That's because the missed dates have eroded the confidence in anything they say. How do you see this as a good thing?

No, The Worst thing SBS can do is ignore what has happened here the last few weeks and continue doing things the same way as before as if nothing has happened.

Atogrim - 3 months ago
@RedDoggybone:

Posted By RedDoggybone at 3:40 PM - Tue May 14 2019

@Atogrim and Xoen. In SBS's case, I totally disagree with you about missing the hard dates. Surely at this point even you have serious doubts they will hit Any hard date they announce? This has been going on since this site opened if not longer. Maybe they have but off hand I can not think of any hard date they actually hit. Every time we make excuses and don't show our ire when they miss a date we enable them to do it again because they see there are no real consequences with their fan base for doing so. And I am sorry but I just don't understand the logic in wanting dates you know most likely will be wrong. The whole point of giving a hard date is so we can plan around it. If the date is always wrong, it serves no purpose. By definition, missing a hard date no longer makes it a hard date. It is now a tentative date.

We finally showed them there are consequences.

We are angry as hell for this not improving.

They have a reputation of not being believable in any date they give and it has started to leak over into what other things are they telling us that is not accurate and maybe we shouldn't believe either?

If you don't think missing these dates hasn't seriously damaged their ability to sell us things you really need to wake up.

These missed dates have turned the majority of the fan base sour on them. Just look at all the down votes supporters and the devs are getting as proof.

The missed dates have turned the hype into a running joke and a negative. People see the hype as nothing more than hype now because so far they have not delivered on any of it. That's because the missed dates have eroded the confidence in anything they say. How do you see this as a good thing?

No, The Worst thing SBS can do is ignore what has happened here the last few weeks and continue doing things the same way as before as if nothing has happened.

Right. But that's not what I said. There is no doubt about the fact that missing dates is bad. It is very bad if it happens on a regular basis. What I was trying to say that giving no dates at all, which is a request i see quite often here, is even WORSE. But neither option is good.

Xoen - 3 months ago

I just understand them about dates. - Putting dates keep hype. - Keeping hype = money coming trough store so they can continue to live. I hope you know 6 millions isn't enough to dev Elyria.

I'm pretty sure they have no choice to put hard date, They know it will be risky because it might turn into more dalays and they are sorry for that. But that the lesser devil on the long range if that means they got enough money to keep going.

Atogrim - 3 months ago

Going to chime in to offer my (totally unasked) opinion. Not giving out hard dates isn't the soultion. After time it will get people equally upset. Just take a look at SC e.g. Delays always rub people in the wrong way. That's just the way it is. Nobody likes waiting. But in my personal opinion waiting with an offical end, no matter how correct or wrong the date is in the end, is still better than waiting without end. From a psychological point of view ^^

Zairick - 3 months ago

I like how the new layout seems to look. It seemed that sbs had a great idea on how to implement timeline/deadlines but never went with it.

You created teams and each of these teams had a set of goals that, at times, interlocked at different positions on their roadmap. Instead of giving the community hard deadlines perhaps you can share a flow chart graphic of what needs to be done and mark where each of the teams are on their quests to complete a certain objective at monthly or bi monthly intervals.

This way it will be easy to distribute info on where we are without the possible missed deadline and such. Not to mention that it is way easier to update and post a flow chart graphic then it is to explain how things are doing in that very moment for all teams involved.

However, that's just my two cents, besides that I am happy to see the updates and can't wait to participate in domain selection.

Best of the best to you and your team as we approach the up and coming milestone! :D

Nimb - 3 months ago

I wanted to say thank you to Caspian for the long and considerate conversation in voice this last weekend. I also wanted to say Thank you for putting the deadline on hold while they get DSS up and running. I look forward to seeing it as soon as it is finished and getting our new timers. It is my hope and belief that they will get maps out to us this week and start timers up again on May 20th or May 27th. Thank you again Caspian for working with us.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago

Oh ok I see, my misunderstanding. Yeah I agree with that ^

Callan - 3 months ago

This is a perfect update! Keep us in the loop as things go forward and don't give hard dates till things are ready. Thank you SBS!

cazari - 3 months ago

It's amazing how negative people get. I pledge three years ago but should I jump up and down like a little brat? Well life goes on but I still think this game is going be amazing. I've waited a long time but I knew the risk of backing a project like this. My advice would be have patience and enjoy life.

grandad1982 - 3 months ago

Just remember that not giving hard dates till stuff is sure (a good thing) isn't the same as not giving info into the process.

With posts like this with little bits of in dev content or even the weekly shinny, you already have the vehicle to keep most of your backers happy till stuff is released.

PhoenixI - 3 months ago

So many negative people. If they put as much time into gaming as they do into complaining they might be better players. Glad to see SBS is making progress on a minor flaw of not keeping excessive optimism regarding release dates to themselves.

Ironside - 3 months ago
@PhoenixI:

Posted By PhoenixI at 03:20 AM - Tue May 14 2019

So many negative people. If they put as much time into gaming as they do into complaining they might be better players. Glad to see SBS is making progress on a minor flaw of not keeping excessive optimism regarding release dates to themselves.

Yup. There is a group of very pissy people proliferating toxicity into the community. Apparently it’s not cool to not be part of the CoE mob. All I’m going to say. The update was just fine in my opinion, but if you support the devs you get down voted. /shrug

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@Ironside:

Posted By Ironside at 4:48 PM - Mon May 13 2019

but if you support the devs you get down voted. /shrug

Does a parent support you when they scold you? or does that mean they don't support you too? Point being, no, people who support the developers aren't getting down-voted.

I would rather have every post on the site be in criticism than every one in blind faith for a clearly failing system for the sake of "Positivity". Most of the negativity is from before the post was edited to remove yet AGAIN another deadline set for 1 week down the line. i.e. they would have made the same mistake three times in a row without fail. From what I can see ever since they listened to those "negative' people, the thread has been fairly positive to them.

Rhyin Arcwolf - 3 months ago
@Takeda_Shinukage:

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 8:00 PM - Mon May 13 2019

Posted By Ironside at 4:48 PM - Mon May 13 2019

but if you support the devs you get down voted. /shrug

Does a parent support you when they scold you? or does that mean they don't support you too? Point being, no, people who support the developers aren't getting down-voted.

It's tough love, sometimes you have to spank your child because they do something dangerous (like running into the street) to teach them to never do that again.

However (and this is general, not aimed at you Takeda, because i do not know you nor your stance) one has to be careful that they are not always "pushing down" (criticizing) the person(s) you are disciplining, but are also "raising up" (praising the good things) that they do so that they do not become disheartened.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago
@Rhyin Arcwolf:

Posted By Rhyin Arcwolf at 8:22 PM - Mon May 13 2019

one has to be careful that they are not always "pushing down" (criticizing) the person(s) you are disciplining, but are also "raising up" (praising the good things) that they do so that they do not become disheartened.

I guess my question would be, when are we "always" criticizing? Every time the developers post anything game related be it just a simple static image of something they get 4+ pages of great job and 100 up-votes. I mean I'm pretty sure snipe posted a shiny right in the middle of the height of this drama and it still did amazing in terms of community reaction. It was even relating to DSS and from what I saw no one even brought up the drama and it was still all praise. Literally anytime the studio produces anything or shares any idea about the game they get pages and pages of praise. I just don't think I can see the point of view that we are always criticizing when almost everything posted by the developers does great in community reaction except for when repeated and avoidable mis-steps occur.

I would argue the "blind faith" group I mentioned earlier is pushing that the community is negative more than anything. If the devs can make say 100 moves and only 2-3 of them create backlash when they are clear repeated and community warned against mis-steps, I just don't see that as "everybody is so negative" like people suggest.

Rhyin Arcwolf - 3 months ago
@Takeda_Shinukage:

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 9:17 PM - Mon May 13 2019

Posted By Rhyin Arcwolf at 8:22 PM - Mon May 13 2019

one has to be careful that they are not always "pushing down" (criticizing) the person(s) you are disciplining, but are also "raising up" (praising the good things) that they do so that they do not become disheartened.

I guess my question would be, when are we "always" criticizing? Every time the developers post anything game related be it just a simple static image of something they worked on get 4+ pages of great job and 100 up-votes. I mean I'm pretty sure snipe posted a shiny right in the middle of the height of this drama and it still did amazing in terms of community reaction. Literally anytime the studio produces anything or shares any idea about the game they get pages and pages of praise. I just don't think I can see the point of view that we are always criticizing when almost everything posted by the developers does great in community reaction except for when repeated and avoidable mis-steps occur.

I'm sorry, i was not clear enough. I was not implying our community is always criticizing, just that we have to be careful and make sure SBS know we are on their side. Criticize their faults, praise their successes.

I don't know if you were in the discord chat yesterday, but i felt that was a good balance. Called out the errors, presented a solution, praised the good that has been done called out the bad.

Ibenholt - 3 months ago

Just got off reading Caspians update on Discord and halfway rushed here to check the forums. But down to the basics.

About fucking time the bear woke up.

I may not be part of the selectors and I have been so happy about that over the past weeks. If I had been a selector I would have been in the fiery red these past two weeks.

They say you should never have expectations, but hopes. Well, this time I personally expect that SBS has learned something to keep in note for the future. And if reading what was not written in the Discord update is anything to go by, then chances are good.

The recent delays and broken timelines have brought much tension to the community. A bomb about to explode, but seems it has somewhat been defused. Now take a deep breath everyone, enjoy your daily lifes until Caspian and the team actually have a finished product, before setting a date.

Looking forward to seeing the selection system once it is done.

LunarRevel - 3 months ago

This is the perfect type of update, in my opinion at least. An excellent in-progress update giving us good details on what you've done, while also leaving it nice and open ended so the studio can do what they need to do without worrying about being a but late. Thanks for the update!

Kyleran - 3 months ago

What's facinating is later this year when no dates are ever given for anything people are going to rage about a lack of info.

It's actually quite difficult to be both accurate and transparent at the same time.

Put another way its unfair to demand devs accurately predict the future.

It's OK though, with everyone giving Jeremy the OK to withhold giving dates until 110% certain they've basically tossed Bre Rabbit back into the briar patch.

My guess is he went to bed last night with a big grin on his face.

Hieronymus - 3 months ago
@Kyleran:

Posted By Kyleran at 11:02 AM - Mon May 13 2019

Put another way its unfair to demand devs accurately predict the future.

It's also unfair for devs to ask people to rearrange their lives to show up on a certain day and certain time to claim the packages they paid hundreds, thousands and in many cases tens of thousands of dollars for but then repeatedly cancel the date. If you're not participating in D&SS, you may not appreciate the burden that all these false starts creates on people individually.

It's OK though, with everyone giving Jeremy the OK to withhold giving dates until 110% certain they've basically tossed Bre Rabbit back into the briar patch.

Well. Here's the really funny thing about that. Caspian already took the arrows for setting a "no more dates" expectation back when other major deadlines were missed.

The unfortunate truth is, dates that they never hit is not the kind of transparency that benefits anyone.

My guess is he went to bed last night with a big grin on his face.

If you think losing credibility as a studio is something to grin about, or losing the support of people who've paid a lot of money to you is something to grin about, or asking your employees to work 7 days a week for weeks on end is something to grin about, or working insane hours under tremendous pressure to deliver a product on a date you have no hope of achieving is something to grin about, or having to host an impromptu voice chat on discord to confront an angry community is something to grin about, then sure. He probably went to bed grinning last night. But I think this suggests his intentions are less than honorable in some way and I don't believe that they are.

I do hope he can breath a sigh of relief though knowing that we care more about having a reliable D&SS experience with the information we were promised on a day that we can count on than a haphazard one thrown together somewhat recklessly.

CrazyWray - 3 months ago
@Hieronymus:

spot on response,

couldn't agree more with you.

I am also totally behind the new approach and decisions made,

I would much prefer a positive experience during DSS, I really hope that everyone involved will, and then the guys at SBS can then sit back ( for a brief period ) with grins like Cheshire cats on there faces, and truly be proud of another successful milestone reached and overcome.

of course there will be drama and no doubt a lot of dummy spitting going on because Elyrian's will get gazumped somewhere along the line, but welcome to DANCE OF DYNASTY'S folks.

Sushislayer - 3 months ago

Caspian,

I'm sure this comment will get lost in the sea of comments but I feel compelled to say it anyways. In the future if you want to set a hard date for say a week, Why don't you put those managerial skills to good use and make it 2 weeks. You keep giving the same excuses, "Oh this took so long because the map is so big." It amazes me how your entire community, thousands of people, already knew your map design was going to take longer than a week but you don't.

Words of advise from a business owner:

Stop giving hard dates unless you know for a fact you can hit them and its better to say 2 weeks and be early than say 1 week and be late.

It amazes me that you have missed literally almost every single deadline and you have yet to still figure this out.

Nobody cares about your excuses, just the progress and product. I'm not saying to cut corners. I'm saying to stop lying to the people that pay your bills and yourself.

Leilah - 3 months ago
@Sushislayer:

Posted By Sushislayer at 10:51 AM - Mon May 13 2019

Caspian,

I'm sure this comment will get lost in the sea of comments but I feel compelled to say it anyways. In the future if you want to set a hard date for say a week, Why don't you put those managerial skills to good use and make it 2 weeks. You keep giving the same excuses, "Oh this took so long because the map is so big." It amazes me how your entire community, thousands of people, already knew your map design was going to take longer than a week but you don't.

Words of advise from a business owner:

Stop giving hard dates unless you know for a fact you can hit them and its better to say 2 weeks and be early than say 1 week and be late.

It amazes me that you have missed literally almost every single deadline and you have yet to still figure this out.

Nobody cares about your excuses, just the progress and product. I'm not saying to cut corners. I'm saying to stop lying to the people that pay your bills and yourself.

This is not new feedback to SBS..

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/31275/missed-again?page=6#post347709

Oroshi - 3 months ago

Next time you need to launch something like this, where people are hyped up about, and are likely to be very annoyed it it fails while it rolls out. Get it working, tested, and, ready to deploy, than plan when to launch it, tell us then, and bring the hype. Also while you are waiting to deploy you can be working on the next thing to wow us with.

This way you have the time to get it right, with out risking pissing off your community.

DracoKalen - 3 months ago

While we're waiting how bout an article explaining how to read the settlement info. For instance Under "Constructions" I see what looks like a well. Does that mean I have to build a well to get fresh water? Under "estimated resources" I see what looks like a 2 lane road, 2 piles of sand, a tower on an overlook and a jug. Just thought this would be something to get a better idea how it worked?

Noryn - 3 months ago
@DracoKalen:

Posted By DracoKalen at 5:19 PM - Mon May 13 2019

While we're waiting how bout an article explaining how to read the settlement info. For instance Under "Constructions" I see what looks like a well. Does that mean I have to build a well to get fresh water? Under "estimated resources" I see what looks like a 2 lane road, 2 piles of sand, a tower on an overlook and a jug. Just thought this would be something to get a better idea how it worked?

All settlements on the maps are existing and if no-one claims them, they'll just continue as NPC towns. So I think, the constructions mentioned are already there, this settlement has a well and a tavern - concidering the population, more then one of each - and a road connecting it to somewhere. Not sure what the sand and jug stand for, though.

DracoKalen - 3 months ago
@Noryn:

well really I was asking for an article we could use as a legend for these, not just what was listed but all the icons they are using and what it means to have like 2 piles or more of a resource. When it comes time for me to choose I want to be able to look at a settlement and be able to decode the information without having to chase someone down to ask.

Athorias - 3 months ago

i need to see to believe at this point tbh, sorry but not sorry

Xarkfleur - 3 months ago

Glad the Discord chat resolved with no date given. Thanks for taking the leap and jumping in there!

Looking forward to the 'review-only' state when it lands...

/takingheart

Klaus_Ikra - 3 months ago

Looks awesome! Glad to see the one of the biggest milestones for the game is almost upon us!

Madame_Ventisette - 3 months ago

I'm happy the tentative date was removed. No more canceled meetings in the Duchies and Counties.

Kerlem - 3 months ago

Better to not release a calendar than to repeatedly miss deadlines. Very good thinking here!

Rrobin - 3 months ago

Probably not the right place to post this . but

People get so impatient. I dont mind any delay at all as long as at the end the Product is put out the way it should be. People need to learn patience. its a game in development. you knew that when you "donated" into it. And hopefully we will get an awsome one of a kind game and I so hope they keep this game challenging and not listen to all the whining about how hard the game will be. LIke all the other games out there that start off awsome and then comes down to rinse and repeat and push 3 button win games.

Bur - 3 months ago
@Rrobin:

Learning to have patience when it comes to game development is a must. The problem with SBS has been the consistently missed dates. I may be wrong but it seems they have missed every date they have pushed so far. It gets annoying when they release a date to hype everyone up only to push it back a week or weeks every time. As many have said the best way to fix this is to make sure you have a finished product FIRST then release a date plus give yourself a little extra time to make sure there are no bugs that need to be fixed. Hyping up dates then missing them every single time only hinders your reliability and reputation. I have never once complained about what SBS is doing but am beginning to agree with the sentiment.

Kyleran - 3 months ago
@Rrobin:

Posted By Rrobin at 07:42 AM - Mon May 13 2019

Probably not the right place to post this . but

People get so impatient. I dont mind any delay at all as long as at the end the Product is put out the way it should be. People need to learn patience. its a game in development. you knew that when you "donated" into it. And hopefully we will get an awsome one of a kind game

A noble sentiment; will be interesting to see where you stand 3 years from now and likely still no release date in sight.

Glosterian - 3 months ago

Glad that community comment has led to a better way of doing things, we trust, ongoing. We so long to see this game really work well - just as we know all you at SbS do! Be encouraged!

Terham - 3 months ago

Glad to see that all your efforts are about to pay off, and that the feedbacks of this community have been listened.

Eager to see this map.

Ravenlute - 3 months ago

I'm going to just assume that the image of the mafia town data is a mock up.

Cool to see what's planned.

FoolUnknowing - 3 months ago

Good things come to those that wait.

When does this review only mode launch? Can I have a date for it?

Nahkahiiri - 3 months ago

Hopefully UI will have enough explanations what everything means. Tool tips for each icon for example. What sustainability x/7 means?

Hopefully example image isn't from the newest version... Hrothi twice, primary industry textiles and none of the top professions are related to textiles... Sustainability could have clearer UI elements to prevent misinterpretations.

I'm pretty sure you could have created 100 times smaller maps in 100 times faster iterations to make sure all clicks before creating all "real" worlds.

What tech are you using to show us the maps? Your own tech or Geoserver, Openlayers for example?

Costanius - 3 months ago

Please test the website properly to avoid bugs and unneccessary drama because of it.

Takeda_Shinukage - 3 months ago

I feel like that post that you know has like 200+ upvotes about not giving monday’s date might have been on to something.

Like I’m glad you listened to voice chat and removed the date this time but why was that necessary I guess is my confusion.

Roarer - 3 months ago

Can anyone summed up what happened in discord voice chat, cuz a lot of people (me) missed it.

Gunnlang - 3 months ago
@Roarer:

Posted By Roarer at 1:27 PM - Mon May 13 2019

Can anyone summed up what happened in discord voice chat, cuz a lot of people (me) missed it.

I only caught the tail end of it. But off reading discord;

People gave feedback about having dates, voicing their concerns and Caspian listened to it. So the first post put out, had a date for next week. The updated one, now clearly doesn't. They are planning to release the maps when they are ready. Give people time to view them, before letting the monarchs pick everything. Before moving on to everyone else, still in order of course.

No doubt someone else will come into this thread, with way more detailed. But the simple version.

Donut310 - 3 months ago
@Roarer:

Stuff is getting done, we will get it when it's ready. It's taking longer than expected. That's it pretty much.

Ballin Stormhammer - 3 months ago

Glad to know progress is going on. Just continue to work and make progress and update us at where things are. When things are ready to pull the trigger then give us the heads up. Until then I like hearing where we are and what is going on. Exciting to see and prevents disappointment if we don't miss a date. Anyway, I look forward to playing when it finally is ready. I personally never put much faith in a date from any team. I've always been a "wait and see" person.

Drudge - 3 months ago

On the plus side, I am sure the next sale is about to start within the next few weeks!

Miss Plume - 3 months ago

Thank you to the studio for taking the feedback into account and incorporating it!

Thank you as well to Caspian in particular for taking the time to listen. It isn't easy to face hundreds of potentially angry people in a voice chat and thousands more in text. You taking the responsibility onto yourself and apologizing (twice) after recognizing what the community was actually upset about was amazing.

Keep up the good work team, I and many others look forward to seeing the maps. Hopefully this position also relieves some of the pressure from the studio. ^_^

I wonder if there is any possibility for a Q&A or even just a tutorial video once the work is complete. :D

(Point and click is easy, but explanations / context might help with interpreting the data.)

Roarer - 3 months ago
@Miss Plume:

So true, an explanation of how to interpret the data / information is much needed. Some people might not expect what kind of world Elyria is, and this is the first step to give them the right mindset.

Poldano - 3 months ago

This is a useful announcement. I'll just add another month to my expectations. (I.e., one week * 4 is about 1 month.)

;-)

I have refrained from making comments about development announcements. I will refrain no longer. It would have been real nice to have received updates about detailed map generation before the announcement of the start of DS&S. That would have allowed those of us with some awareness of the scale of technological problems involved to plausibly attempt to manage the expectations of others.

Jarri - 3 months ago

a bunch of negative stuff regarding sbs and their track record

^ decided not to echo the discontent In a giant ass post but I'm feeling it and understand why others are as well.

Hopefully things improve moving forward.... an unlikely hope but it's still there I guess.

Anyways, happy mothers day!

Gunnlang - 3 months ago

Hey Caspian, have you read the boy that cried wolf? Because that's what I'm feeling right about now.

I think Marovec (forgive me if it wasn't you). Said something after the first delay like, "Maybe you should just delay the whole thing, until it's ready". That seems like the smart way to do things.

You seem to like building up hype, then waiting until the last minute to post a delay. When you were talking on discord about all the stuff left, was pretty clear a delay was coming. But you are living in some magic world where shit just magically gets done faster.

I don't believe you will hit this next date and honestly, I have lost faith about any date you say in the future. To believe you, means I have learned nothing from the boy that cried wolf.

Edit: Good to see you finally listened to the community, pity that had to happen through voice chat. Since the threads on here, saying what I can assume was the same thing. Somehow wasn't good enough or maybe your head has been finally removed from the sand. Not sure which is it. I can only hope, going forward, you don't fall back into your old self.

Sperg - 3 months ago

Very nice Caspian, looks great!!

Scorus - 3 months ago

I keep hitting the green Claim button but nothing happens!

You obviously have a lot of data that has been generated and is final. Please release some of it, even if it is very general (there are X cities, Y villages, Z population, etc.)

DeepDashing - 3 months ago

Appreciate the update, I would rather see a product completely finished and tested rather than one half done.

Moonphaser - 3 months ago

I love how the top jobs for that small village start out nice with bookbinder then it jumps to executioner :)

Out of curiosity, is this something everyone is going to see or just those who have bought the mayor and higher pledges?

SQiRL - 3 months ago

LeftFist - 3 months ago

Just how of curiosity... Why are Hrothi listed twice in the tribe distribution section of settlement 1.12.3.01?

millsdo - 3 months ago

Good call team! Keep on keeping on!

Server - 3 months ago

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

ThatRasputin - 3 months ago

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

Tinarius - 3 months ago
@ThatRasputin:

Posted By ThatRasputin at 4:36 PM - Sun May 12 2019

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

He has our money with no accountability attached, why would he apologize and bruise his ego?

Miss Plume - 3 months ago
@Tinarius:

Posted By Tinarius at 6:37 PM - Sun May 12 2019

Posted By ThatRasputin at 4:36 PM - Sun May 12 2019

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

He has our money with no accountability attached, why would he apologize and bruise his ego?

Note: He didn't apologize in text, but he did apologize via voice to everyone who showed up after the initial release of this post.

Tinarius - 3 months ago
@Miss Plume:

Posted By Miss Plume at 7:43 PM - Sun May 12 2019

Posted By Tinarius at 6:37 PM - Sun May 12 2019

Posted By ThatRasputin at 4:36 PM - Sun May 12 2019

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

He has our money with no accountability attached, why would he apologize and bruise his ego?

Note: He didn't apologize in text, but he did apologize via voice to everyone who showed up after the initial release of this post.

Where? Discord? Is that now considered the official channel of communication? And why after and not as part of this news release?

JohnWhite - 3 months ago
@Tinarius:

Posted By Tinarius at 02:46 AM - Mon May 13 2019

Where? Discord? Is that now considered the official channel of communication? And why after and not as part of this news release?

Because apparently after 3 weeks of delays and SBS saying they were "listening and improving" Caspian still had no clue what the problem actually was until he joined voice.

Miss Plume - 3 months ago
@Tinarius:

Posted By Tinarius at 6:46 PM - Sun May 12 2019

Posted By Miss Plume at 7:43 PM - Sun May 12 2019

Posted By Tinarius at 6:37 PM - Sun May 12 2019

Posted By ThatRasputin at 4:36 PM - Sun May 12 2019

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

He has our money with no accountability attached, why would he apologize and bruise his ego?

Note: He didn't apologize in text, but he did apologize via voice to everyone who showed up after the initial release of this post.

Where? Discord? Is that now considered the official channel of communication? And why after and not as part of this news release?

I will not comment on making an official or unofficial apology; just that one happened. I already said it was in a voice chat on discord. Forcibly trying to get one in text through complaints won't prove anything to anyone.

Personally, I'm trying to focus on the fact that feedback on how this delay should be handled is being taken into account. Owning up to and addressing that there was a mistake made is the best kind of 'apology' to the community. Actions speak louder than words. That there were words at all on top of that... helps. :)

Kyleran - 3 months ago
@ThatRasputin:

Posted By ThatRasputin at 7:36 PM - Sun May 12 2019

I'm mostly disappointed because the word we should be seeing somewhere in all this is "Sorry".

A word you will rarely see, but still more likely than the phrase, "I was wrong."

Cheers.

UDLAlkaline - 3 months ago

Perhaps you should remove the may 20th and just say soon(ish).

KILLERWHITE98 - 3 months ago

I’m just excited to see this interactive map!

Makeke - 3 months ago

Stop giving dates as you never meet them. The only dates you meet are the promo launch dates.

The sad part in this is that I’m not even annoyed or surprised. I expected it to be missed. Even though the delay post last week said “it will be ready in a few days”.

You guys just can’t land. I hope you figure it out.

Desdark - 3 months ago

Its not the first game delayed several times (in a row). Happens, we all know.

Ilhar - 3 months ago

sure just making sure a day is clear for 3 weeks in a row no big deal not like people have lives ....

JohnWhite - 3 months ago

shocked by this week's delay, shocked I tell you... almost like if a storm came and thunder hit me

Liva - 3 months ago

I'm happy with some news, it's always lovely to hear about what's being worked on, and I will always whole-heartedly support SBS in the creation of CoE because it's a game I wish, very much so, to see flourish and become the game it's meant to be <3

That said, I really think a lot of people have been bummed out with the dates, and I know a lot of people would much rather see you just wait with giving out dates till it's been completed, either during or after testing. placing a date after it's been completed would be much more beneficial, or that's the impression I'm getting at least.

It's always better to surprise than to disappoint.

But I still wish you the best of luck, and I hope that we get to take a look at the maps in the coming days :)

CryAxe - 3 months ago

For the tl/dr crowd, Caspian says: This time is for realzies. I can feel it in my nuggets!

Gaoman - 3 months ago

Looking forward to the maps, this looks awesome.

Minor delays compared to the massive endeavor.

Sir_Skylos - 3 months ago

I'm sorry but this is a joke, now I will get downvoted here but who cares.

So, I started off ideally placed for my pick, then it was pushed back a week to a sketchy but doable date, now I am pushed back to whilst I am on holiday.

But still I'm lucky, I didn't book any time off work.

All of this pales though in SBS image in the wider gaming community. You fix dates and then miss them, why on earth are you even setting a date for DSS before the world is even generated. It just screams stupidity...

Everything should have been ready to go and in testing when you announced DSS, that's what you should do for everything you announce...

DerryFH - 3 months ago
@Sir_Skylos:

Posted By Sir_Skylos at 06:49 AM - Mon May 13 2019

I'm sorry but this is a joke, now I will get downvoted here but who cares.

So, I started off ideally placed for my pick, then it was pushed back a week to a sketchy but doable date, now I am pushed back to whilst I am on holiday.

But still I'm lucky, I didn't book any time off work.

All of this pales though in SBS image in the wider gaming community. You fix dates and then miss them, why on earth are you even setting a date for DSS before the world is even generated. It just screams stupidity...

Everything should have been ready to go and in testing when you announced DSS, that's what you should do for everything you announce...

Come on man, get real - testing? There is no testing there, just a development team saying "it runs on my machine".

Rellik - 3 months ago

HEY GUYS - Remember how last week literally majority of the community asked you to remove the "13th May date" because we thought you wouldn't be able to meet it and it gave you a safe space? Well I remember.

Edit: At least we get the maps before actual picks now - kinda nice

RedDoggybone - 3 months ago
@Rellik:

Posted By Rellik at 6:48 PM - Sun May 12 2019

HEY GUYS - Remember how last week literally majority of the community asked you to remove the "13th May date" because we thought you wouldn't be able to meet it and it gave you a safe space? Well I remember.

Edit: At least we get the maps before actual picks now - kinda nice

Regarding the edit. Seeing is believing.

Mysi Karuna - 3 months ago

Just to be clear, you do expect to at least release the D&SS website (with viewable maps and accurate timers) once testing has finished sometime this week, but the Ducal selection stage won't start until the 20th?

EDIT: Casp's update answered my question: "The Domain and Settlement Selection site will be brought online in a review-only mode [i.e., we're able to look at maps at least] once the integration of maps and site is complete." And the Ducal picking stage won't happen until it's ready.

Abigor - 3 months ago
@Mysi Karuna:

edit, misread my bad

kuthedk - 3 months ago

I honestly am happy with the update and even with the delay. sure, its another week, but that give you guys @ SBS to really put the polish on this and have awesome Maps for D&SS

Arethos - 3 months ago

Thanks for the hard work trying to get this out to us, even if that means pushing it back another week. Hopefully it might even give you some more time to make it even better. 👍

Lodrig - 3 months ago

The probability that any particular delay will be the last delay is inversely proportional the number of preceding delays.

MaceMaul - 3 months ago

Nobody saw this one coming.

Augustus_Aquila - 3 months ago

NO comment

Lira - 3 months ago

Great post. Thanks for the info and have a great Mother's Day!

Lucasdb - 3 months ago

Love how you sayed, we wont do it in December because of the holidays lolol!

Konlet - 3 months ago

Godspeed.

JohnnyViscerate - 3 months ago

HUZZAH!