Ancestral Lands as an Individual (Question)

Excellent summary of the issues. I think there is a lot of confusion about what is involved here, arising from SBS trying to use a more realistic and complicated theory of ownership (the "bundle of sticks") than is usually found in game.

That said, I am confident that any lands you obtain with EP will be buildable and usable by you -- and a count can't take that away (even if they can somehow tax the land, and I'm not even sure the king should be able to allow that). That said, hostile nobles may have the power to gang up on people and take their land away through hostile attack. A good noble protects their people, but a bad one will steal from them. (And not in a "tax is theft" kind of way; more like an "armed robbery is theft" kind of way.)

Posted By Beathan at 4:27 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

Excellent summary of the issues. I think there is a lot of confusion about what is involved here, arising from SBS trying to use a more realistic and complicated theory of ownership (the "bundle of sticks") than is usually found in game.

That said, I am confident that any lands you obtain with EP will be buildable and usable by you -- and a count can't take that away (even if they can somehow tax the land, and I'm not even sure the king should be able to allow that). That said, hostile nobles may have the power to gang up on people and take their land away through hostile attack. A good noble protects their people, but a bad one will steal from them. (And not in a "tax is theft" kind of way; more like an "armed robbery is theft" kind of way.)

I would like to work with the counts for my plans, hence my wondering if there are other options for individuals like myself.

I read through some of the bundle of sticks discussion. It was highly interesting, but also very complicated when the only goal is a handful of parcels at most. It'd be nice if I could opt-in to some type of normal land even if it could myself at the discretion of the count and resulting taxes. I have nothing against AL, just perhaps it applying to all EP bought land. :seenoevil:

Posted By Miss Plume at 5:36 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

Posted By Beathan at 4:27 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

Excellent summary of the issues. I think there is a lot of confusion about what is involved here, arising from SBS trying to use a more realistic and complicated theory of ownership (the "bundle of sticks") than is usually found in game.

That said, I am confident that any lands you obtain with EP will be buildable and usable by you -- and a count can't take that away (even if they can somehow tax the land, and I'm not even sure the king should be able to allow that). That said, hostile nobles may have the power to gang up on people and take their land away through hostile attack. A good noble protects their people, but a bad one will steal from them. (And not in a "tax is theft" kind of way; more like an "armed robbery is theft" kind of way.)

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I would like to work with the counts for my plans, hence my wondering if there are other options for individuals like myself.

I read through some of the bundle of sticks discussion. It was highly interesting, but also very complicated when the only goal is a handful of parcels at most. It'd be nice if I could opt-in to some type of normal land even if it could myself at the discretion of the count and resulting taxes. I have nothing against AL, just perhaps it applying to all EP bought land. :seenoevil:

I personally would rather the ancestral land dynamic not apply to taxes or government regulation at all. Rather, I would prefer that it be just like other county land in that regard -- but with some special connection to the exposition owner and their heirs. Something like a casus bellum against anyone else who owns it.

Posted By Beathan at 4:41 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

Posted By Miss Plume at 5:36 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

Posted By Beathan at 4:27 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

Excellent summary of the issues. I think there is a lot of confusion about what is involved here, arising from SBS trying to use a more realistic and complicated theory of ownership (the "bundle of sticks") than is usually found in game.

That said, I am confident that any lands you obtain with EP will be buildable and usable by you -- and a count can't take that away (even if they can somehow tax the land, and I'm not even sure the king should be able to allow that). That said, hostile nobles may have the power to gang up on people and take their land away through hostile attack. A good noble protects their people, but a bad one will steal from them. (And not in a "tax is theft" kind of way; more like an "armed robbery is theft" kind of way.)

---

I would like to work with the counts for my plans, hence my wondering if there are other options for individuals like myself.

I read through some of the bundle of sticks discussion. It was highly interesting, but also very complicated when the only goal is a handful of parcels at most. It'd be nice if I could opt-in to some type of normal land even if it could myself at the discretion of the count and resulting taxes. I have nothing against AL, just perhaps it applying to all EP bought land. :seenoevil:

I personally would rather the ancestral land dynamic not apply to taxes or government regulation at all. Rather, I would prefer that it be just like other county land in that regard -- but with some special connection to the exposition owner and their heirs. Something like a casus bellum against anyone else who owns it.

You have a lot of insight on the topic of historical land ownership. Do you think privately owned land is an impossibility? I know the land ownership is more feudal in approach for CoE, and land of that type was more often... leased out.

Posted By Miss Plume at 5:43 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

You have a lot of insight on the topic of historical land ownership. Do you think privately owned land is an impossibility? I know the land ownership is more feudal in approach for CoE, and land of that type was more often... leased out.

I think privately owned land is exactly what most people, including SBS, have in mind. Privately owned land, however, is subject to taxation and government regulation -- both now and historically.

Yep. Fairly straightforward and simple. This works like many tiered systems of land ownership in the real world.

AL is not part of the counts territory. Anyone, including a count, can take it over by force. Just like any other land in CoE. The count just can’t claim it as his though. AL still falls under the Kings domain and thus any laws the king hands down falls over AL. Taxes are set by the King, and AL starts out tax free, but again if the king says pay your taxes to a count you pay the taxes. The count can’t just order you to do so though.

Posted By PhKnight at 5:38 PM - Sat Aug 03 2019

AL is not part of the counts territory. Anyone, including a count, can take it over by force. Just like any other land in CoE. The count just can’t claim it as his though. AL still falls under the Kings domain and thus any laws the king hands down falls over AL. Taxes are set by the King, and AL starts out tax free, but again if the king says pay your taxes to a count you pay the taxes. The count can’t just order you to do so though.

Unappealing in many ways for many uses. It seems like it'd be great for someone aiming to make a presumptive settlement from the grounds up though.

Well one clarification I'd like comes on taxes.

Yes AL is exempt from property tax.

But someone online was saying any business conducted on AL is tax free as well. That doesn't seem right to me.

Posted By Snipehunter at 12:29 PM - Sun Aug 04 2019

The taxation status of AL depends entirely on the laws of the kingdom. The only AL specific rule is that AL isn't county or duchy land, but kingdom land, the rights of which are granted to the AL landholder.

If a player wants to purchase some land for use but isn't interested in the politics of AL, they should buy them from their local count, in-game. the difference is simply that the land bought this way is county land, and subject to any laws passed by the duke/duchess and count/countess that has dominion over that domain.

Pragmatically this means the count or duke can seize that land back by decree, declare certain practices on that land illegal, rescind certain specific usage rights, etc. etc. But the same is true at the monarch level for AL, fwiw.

Hope that helps! :)

It does! Thank you so much Snipe!!

Posted By Snipehunter at 1:29 PM - Sun Aug 04 2019

The taxation status of AL depends entirely on the laws of the kingdom. The only AL specific rule is that AL isn't county or duchy land, but kingdom land, the rights of which are granted to the AL landholder.

If a player wants to purchase some land for use but isn't interested in the politics of AL, they should buy them from their local count, in-game. the difference is simply that the land bought this way is county land, and subject to any laws passed by the duke/duchess and count/countess that has dominion over that domain.

Pragmatically this means the count or duke can seize that land back by decree, declare certain practices on that land illegal, rescind certain specific usage rights, etc. etc. But the same is true at the monarch level for AL, fwiw.

Hope that helps! :)

Interesting. That's a bit different than I expected based on the idea that the differences derived from a bundle of sticks approach to property. Rather, the differences derive from jurisdictional differences, rather than different bundles of rights per se.

There are still real life analogies -- such as the status of native reservations, which are subject to national law, but not to state law, except where the United States has enacted a law that makes tribal lands subject to state jurisdiction -- but it isn't really a bundle of sticks issue.

I think I like this explanation less than I liked the bundle of sticks explanation.

Posted By Snipehunter at 4:29 PM - Sun Aug 04 2019

The taxation status of AL depends entirely on the laws of the kingdom. The only AL specific rule is that AL isn't county or duchy land, but kingdom land, the rights of which are granted to the AL landholder.

If a player wants to purchase some land for use but isn't interested in the politics of AL, they should buy them from their local count, in-game. the difference is simply that the land bought this way is county land, and subject to any laws passed by the duke/duchess and count/countess that has dominion over that domain.

Pragmatically this means the count or duke can seize that land back by decree, declare certain practices on that land illegal, rescind certain specific usage rights, etc. etc. But the same is true at the monarch level for AL, fwiw.

Hope that helps! :)

Unfortunately not

Yes AL is exempt from property tax.

But someone online was saying any business conducted on AL is tax free as well. That doesn't seem right to me.

Will there be restrictions on which lands can become Ancestral Lands? If not, there is potential for the most valuable parcels becoming AL, and the less desirable parcels being left to the counties. That does not bode well for the tax base of the counties.

Posted By DracoKalen at 2:04 PM - Sun Aug 04 2019

Posted By Snipehunter at 4:29 PM - Sun Aug 04 2019

The taxation status of AL depends entirely on the laws of the kingdom. The only AL specific rule is that AL isn't county or duchy land, but kingdom land, the rights of which are granted to the AL landholder.

If a player wants to purchase some land for use but isn't interested in the politics of AL, they should buy them from their local count, in-game. the difference is simply that the land bought this way is county land, and subject to any laws passed by the duke/duchess and count/countess that has dominion over that domain.

Pragmatically this means the count or duke can seize that land back by decree, declare certain practices on that land illegal, rescind certain specific usage rights, etc. etc. But the same is true at the monarch level for AL, fwiw.

Hope that helps! :)

Unfortunately not

Yes AL is exempt from property tax.

But someone online was saying any business conducted on AL is tax free as well. That doesn't seem right to me.

Haven't seen anything official about this, but I can see why people might assume it.

Posted By Poldano at 8:00 PM - Sun Aug 04 2019

Will there be restrictions on which lands can become Ancestral Lands? If not, there is potential for the most valuable parcels becoming AL, and the less desirable parcels being left to the counties. That does not bode well for the tax base of the counties.

I believe it's only land purchased with EP at the moment. The description hints that the King might be able to grant ancestral lands. I can't think of any other possible way it could be acquired. It's not going to be like a togglable option for existing landowners if it will require a monarch's direct involvement.