Posted By Gunghoe at 09:03 AM - Sun Dec 09 2018

1.) The count will potentially hire people to build the roads or use EP. The problem with doing the subsidies that you're talking about is that people usually milk it for all it's worth. That's the very nature of people. They want the most of what they can, and a person with more devided time and resources will not be able to effectivly over see them in large domains. There is no need to force a count to purchase what would already be built by the people within the county.

It's essentially a waste of resources. Unless you have a grand scheme to make as much money as possible you also won't make it a monopoly to build roads. Private roads are better kept and generally really good if a business can opt into owning a stretch of road.

2.)Private forces are unavoidable. Private Tribunal and Arbitration is also unavoidable. Enforcing the monopoly is also really hard to do, might as well embrace it. The more player freedom the happier the domain. The less the worse. I personally see my court of commons and potential High kings court something of a path if the community in a settlement can't handle it themselves.

Incompetence is rife within governmental brown nose people. I do see your point you don't like it when more than one person can seek out justice in a domain. The corruption is worse within government, especially in this game. I've seen it first hand how corrupt some of the political figures already are. Many are already planning on taking advantage of their vassals and also figuring out ways to support their "loyal" people when they do crimes.

Honestly Thinking that corruption is non existent in government is inherently flawed many people will exist for the soul reason of taking advantage of the law system to support their agenda more than their domain.

Of course they'll sell you the story differently. And give you a wonderful propaganda piece.

If you force either of those two topics that you've mentioned into a monopoly of government, you'll also create a huge reason of people hiding things from you if you hold a title. If you want to work with the various communities in your domain you must need to be flexible, but also make sure you support their property rights and their sovereignty to be able to do what they will with the resources they get. What entitles the nobility, or aristocracy to your property? Only their entitled existence.

Do you think making everybody building their own roads makes them happy. To where will they build it, to their property lines? The count has no right to build on their properties anyway, so that's already happening. Will they build it to the county border? Unless they come to a unanimous decision, that will not happen. Let's say they managed to come to a unanimous decision, what will they expect from every new member of the community, live there for free or will they ask him to contribute to that road that was built by them before he built his home? Sounds like tax to me. :)

Oh, you want to hire your own protection? Be my guest, but I will probably not buy your wares, because the prices will be to high. You will probably not be happy that I'll be traveling over the road you build. I foresee the golden time for guards, when everybody has his own protection. Lets hope you are all hippies and never have conflicts together, because the chaos would be tremendous. People will be afraid to walk the streets and local entrepreneurs who can't hire guards will be bullied away.

But you probably know what's best for everybody. You are better than all the government officials together. You build your own house, with your own garden, your own food and have your own guards. Problems solved, and everyday you pray that there never be war. The only ones making money in your little kingdom will be the guards. Not you, because the guards have more power than you. They can demand their own wages, and there will be nobody to protect you from your own guards. Most certainly not the count. You are an anarchist with your own private army. Why bother?

I will not dismiss your idea completely, but answer me this, and try not to troll it away and answer it honestly: What if someone sells his products in your little paradise, for way lower prices than you can ever afford, because he didn't pay for the road and doesn't hire guards, but instead joins the count and get his protection from the count and the Duke? He gives his 10% to the count and obeys the laws of the kingdom. Will you let him, or send your guards at him to teach him a lesson? Or maybe you're being nice and lower your prices as well?

People are happy when they can make money off specific things. If there is a market to be had. Why should you prevent people from capitalizing on the market and making roads to wherever they can or want? Yes, the count has no right to build property on owned land of someone else. That’s the very nature of property rights. That is fundamental and by far the most important thing someone will have in this game is their property, the next important thing they have is their character’s life and their labor. After all people have the right to Life, liberty, and Property.

Why wouldn’t me or my vassals not be able to hire protection. If I can do it, they should be able to do so themselves. This would drive down the cost because of the absence of stealing from other people, through the coercive nature of government. Why wouldn’t I be happy you are traveling over the road I built. The road is there for a reason. None of my people in my domain are “hippies”. The only people that would be afraid to walk the streets are those that are the criminals or people that do others harm.

The reason why I hold this belief is that I don’t know what is best for everyone. At least not more than the guild that would like a road to be built, or whatever investments they make. The governmental officials that exist are for the most part corrupt and whole hog bullshit artists that. Would like to buy each person’s support. There is no real support there. Why should I steal their resources and fund things I think they need? The only people that know best where their resources should go is themselves. Or their organization that they are with.

Guards will ask a price for their service. People will not hire guards that are too costly, compared to how much they have a demand for them. The supply is high for that line of work. If people are willing to pay for their service with the price they asked for. Then, how would that be a bad thing. Isn’t that the same thing a military does, and any other group that hires people? They negotiate the price for the service that is offered.

You think that they’ll be coercive in their attempt to name a price? If that’s what you mean they are running a criminal organization. That’s when you would contact other people and let others know that they’re essentially running a protection racket, the nobility or aristocracy then will deal with them that aren’t abiding by the few basic laws that would exist in a domain like this. Or you could solicit help from neighbors to fix the problem themselves if they so wish. The options are endless.

What if someone sells his products at lower prices? Well good for him I might buy it if I need his services or goods. If he didn’t need guards. And If he doesn’t need to pay for roads. Then that’s also a bonus. We aren’t wasting resources on someone who doesn’t need the services and can get by just fine with the roads that are free to use. (Which there would be many, by the way in this style of economy, businesses want people to be able to easily get to them.) Then more power to him. Why on gods green earth would I make it so that he would need to? Wouldn't I essentially be providing that Protection racket that you are so afraid of earlier?

You’re running under the belief that I am an anarchist, well I am; however, my domain can’t possibly run that way due to game mechanics. I wish it could, but it can’t. So, there is duties that I will do and services I will provide. They have the option to pay for them or not, be homeless for all I care. But they need to follow the three basic rules of my domain. Don’t kill other people, don’t harm other’s liberty, and don’t harm other’s property. Simple enough to me.

I am confused. You suddenly talk about vassals and "your domain". I think you are an anarchist, and you call yourself an anarchist. Who are you to make rules for what you call "your domain". Did you buy all that land from someone, or did you just take it? I assume you just took it and now call it your domain. Doesn't that make you a government with your vassals, or something? Okay, I let that slide, since nitpicking on words is not exactly an discussion. You probably mean "friends" with the "vassal" word. If they are cool with being called that, I am cool with that too. Your "domain" is probably the land you took without paying taxes. If you can defend it against the Duke or King, it is certainly your right to call it your domain. I assume you can, so we don't have to debate that.

What if someone sells his products at lower prices? Well good for him I might buy it if I need his services or goods. If he didn’t need guards. And If he doesn’t need to pay for roads. Then that’s also a bonus. We aren’t wasting resources on someone who doesn’t need the services and can get by just fine with the roads that are free to use. (Which there would be many, by the way in this style of economy, businesses want people to be able to easily get to them.) Then more power to him. Why on gods green earth would I make it so that he would need to? Wouldn't I essentially be providing that Protection racket that you are so afraid of earlier?

You're going bankrupt if you have to sell your wares, pay for your guards, protect the roads and fight the Duke's forces as well. The Duke is a mean man, He doesn't like your attitude and is in firm believe that the land belongs to the king. Let's assume your numbers are higher than the Duke's and the King's combined. You can only sell your wares within your own community. Seems like a perfectly good deal for you, right? But everywhere your "vassals" go. they are trespassing and will need your protection. I am a smart count. I can totally run a county without your consent. I build my roads and a church, town hall, guild hall, and lots of fun stuff. Your community, which is complete separated from everything else in my county (Yes, I call it my county, because you can't throw me off, unless you break your own rule of "don't kill and don't destroy"). I leave the Duke out of this for a moment, because I don't want to debate who's what and where with you. I consider it all mine, period! Every tree you cut, every daisy you pluck, and every animal you kill is my property. Call me corrupt, but I was here before you came, or you would have been a noble calling everybody vassals and my land your domain. You already do. Man, I try to shake it off, but I can't. Can you please remove these words from your argument? They make you a count/duke wannabe. Anyway, because I made the law of thou shalt not kill and destroy, I brand all your hunters, lumberjacks, and gatherers as thieves. I have that very same law as the one you claim your own. Despite your selfish attitude of my road and my guard, I want to share what I have. The citizens of my county can do whatever they want and learn whatever they want. Their prices will be fair, because I'll protect them with everything I have, with help from that mean Duke. You are there hidden behind walls, being fancy and free. No taxes, no property destroying and no killing. But don't come out there to cut my trees or kill my animals, because your ass is grass. If you don't share with me, I don't share with you. I'm not gonna kill, or destroy your property, because you have the combined might of your guards. I wonder how you'll pay them, but that is not my problem.

Time is out, I am being called by private life. Let's just shake hands and help me with protecting you and yours. I promise that everyday an army will march through "your" town, to show that we mean business with your protection. We kill the bandits who roam the lands and everybody has a chance to be happy, not just us outside your walls. We call people who need personal guards prisoners of their own lifestyle. They are not free at all. Freedom is in essence an illusion, but when you have to protect yourself from the outside world, it is even more an illusion.

mUh NoN-aGgrEsSiOn PaCT

Guys, please keep this on topic. If yall want to argue the validity of state sponsored programs and public works, or the use of personal protection, please make a different thread. this one is for already assuming that you will have state sponsored public works, and the taxes that support them.

Posted By LordMayorMatt at 2:19 PM - Sun Dec 09 2018

Guys, please keep this on topic. If yall want to argue the validity of state sponsored programs and public works, or the use of personal protection, please make a different thread. this one is for already assuming that you will have state sponsored public works, and the taxes that support them.

I will be running 2 academies, with the system tied into what I've been talking about. One military and the other bardic. I will also support low income rent buildings that are communal in the waerd lands. This has nothing to do with There shouldn't be a government, because the game mechanics dictate that there WILL be a state.

So Under that, there will have to be ways to support my endeavors and my communities. And I will do it voluntarily, without theft.

Taxes is a way for a community to pool their resources together to pay for the public services and projects that benefit that community, thus saying taxation is theft is like saying sharing is theft. If there is a problem with waste, poor priorities, or leeching of these pooled resources then the problem lies with whoever is managing the taxes on behalf of the people and not the taxes themselves. There is bound to be some incompetence and corruption, but to assume it'll be the default behavior is tinfoil hat territory, and logically inconsistent if you have faith in voluntary methods. Greed and generosity are two sides of the same coin.

Of course, you can raise this money in a number of different ways, but seeking voluntary donations or similar are going to be an extremely inefficient way to run a government. One thing is that the annual funds are going to be very inconsistent, committing to regular expenses are going to be financially irresponsible under such conditions. Not to mention you will also be wasting a lot more time raising the funds.

There's a "voluntary payment" model in the wage market called tipping. Those of you who live in a society where this practice is common may not give it much thought and I'm not going to go into the many objective reasons why market experts consider it a bad practice here. Instead I'm simply going to ask, do anyone really think a government working under similar conditions will be able to commit and perform its job anywhere close to another government who have a proper financial forecast to work with? Do anyone honestly think this government will be able to compete on an even ground?

I'm not against voluntary financing though, especially for supplementary funding, however, when the primary reasoning behind it appears to be based in a warped understanding of the tax system, perhaps even finances in general, then I have quite a few concerns. Certain things require the government to know what it has to work with, there's very few models that can compete with the tax system when it comes to efficiency, consistency, and practicality.

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

Posted By Vandrool at 12:36 AM - Tue Dec 11 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

Do you own that land, if not it's not yours... It's either the counties or the person that bought the land or the towns that has the land incorporated. Honestly, don't expect your "free" squatting spot to be undiscovered for long.

Posted By Vandrool at 11:36 PM - Mon Dec 10 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

So all land belongs to someone, you can live in the woods without permission to the land owner, but that is Illegal in most places. Some lords may give you that land, or sell it to you. but youll have to pay taxes if you legally want to live on it. If they want to retian ownership of the land, they can charge you rent, so either way, you have to pay .

Posted By Vandrool at 06:36 AM - Tue Dec 11 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

CoE will be using medieval taxation methods, so modern taxation in the form or income or sales tax (VAT) is unlikely to be a thing. Majority of taxes will be based on land ownership as others have pointed out, but also guild taxation. Road tolls at various choke points like tunnels, bridges or city gates are also likely, same goes for various fees. Primary difference between medieval and modern taxes is that the medieval system do not use percentages, only flat tax rates.

As for free living, the rules around that will vary largely depending on the domain I can imagine. My county for example plan to allow county rangers to build cabins around the wilderness, these parcels won't be taxed because they also won't be claimed, but this also means they'll remain public property and can potentially be used by more people than you. Of course, the primary purpose for this is to have free shelters available around in the wilderness, so the public property part is very intended, but rangers are free to use these spots as bases of operation too and are thus allowed to keep them locked according to need. A hunter makes for a good candidate for the ranger role.

Posted By Vandrool at 1:36 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

Guess you haven't really read up on the game huh?

Posted By Gunghoe at 5:02 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

Posted By Vandrool at 12:36 AM - Tue Dec 11 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

Do you own that land, if not it's not yours... It's either the counties or the person that bought the land or the towns that has the land incorporated. Honestly, don't expect your "free" squatting spot to be undiscovered for long.

It says on the website you can build anywhere whether you own the land or not. And if you can defend it for long enough you may even end up owning it. But I was referring to living wild. Hunting and surviving off the land.

Posted By HajimeSaito at 9:59 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

Posted By Vandrool at 1:36 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

Guess you haven't really read up on the game huh?

I haven't read much on this. But as I understand it in this potential game everything is made by the players. So do we start off with no structures? If so what are taxes for? Or are we starting off with pre-built towns?

Posted By Vandrool at 8:47 PM - Sun Dec 16 2018

Posted By HajimeSaito at 9:59 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

Posted By Vandrool at 1:36 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

I can't see how you can tax anything to begin with except time. Nothing will be established. Communities have to evolve into structures that could even warrant a King or Queen that could require taxes. What happens to the 'free' players? Can I live in the woods, hunt off the land and not pay taxes?

Guess you haven't really read up on the game huh?

I haven't read much on this. But as I understand it in this potential game everything is made by the players. So do we start off with no structures? If so what are taxes for? Or are we starting off with pre-built towns?

I.... I don't even know where to start.

We are starting off with procedurally generated continents that have pregenerated Kingdoms which are forming their communities as we speak and will be able to stake out their land and starting settlements soon.

You have so very much reading to do to catch up.

Let me know if you would like any help, but short version for this topic is Yes taxes will be a thing at launch.