I'm sure someone would create some type of crime syndicate that would handle anything dealings that come with deviant contracts. The only way I see crime surviving long term is if criminals take the time to get organized..
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I'm sure someone would create some type of crime syndicate that would handle anything dealings that come with deviant contracts. The only way I see crime surviving long term is if criminals take the time to get organized..
Posted By Snipehunter at 7:03 PM - Wed Feb 21 2018
Posted By Vucar at 2:47 PM - Wed Feb 21 2018
The idea of a "deviant only" contract sounds silly to me. Legally binding the illegal is an oxymoron unto itself.
Excuse my word choice. What I mean in this case is the idea of an alternative form of contract meant to be "crowd-enforced" rather than enforced through the legal system. Mechanically you could tokenize it the way bounties and crimes are dealt with, such that failure to live up to the contract would result in a piece of information ("a token") that deviant PCs and NPCs alike could react to. It would be a way to systematize "honor among thieves," essentially, not a mechanism of legality for essentially illegal acts. :)
Oh, a quick aside to the whole thread. Just something I want to reiterate, basically: A skill being in the deviant tree doesn't actually make it illegal automatically. A locksmith might decide to learn lockpicking, to use a popular example, for perfectly legitimate and legal reasons.
I get what you are saying. CoE will extensively use the contract system, more so than people would in RL, to quantify interactions that might normally be verbal or inherently understood in the real world.
So even if a "deviant contract" sounds a bit silly to some, it would be a benefit to the crime world in-game in the same ways that it is beneficial for the legal contract system. The only difference is that in the real world the ratio of verbal / understood contracts for deviant contracts are much higher than legal contracts.
Posted By Snipehunter at 5:03 PM - Wed Feb 21 2018
Posted By Vucar at 2:47 PM - Wed Feb 21 2018
The idea of a "deviant only" contract sounds silly to me. Legally binding the illegal is an oxymoron unto itself.
Excuse my word choice. What I mean in this case is the idea of an alternative form of contract meant to be "crowd-enforced" rather than enforced through the legal system. Mechanically you could tokenize it the way bounties and crimes are dealt with, such that failure to live up to the contract would result in a piece of information ("a token") that deviant PCs and NPCs alike could react to. It would be a way to systematize "honor among thieves," essentially, not a mechanism of legality for essentially illegal acts. :)
On the one hand, for the purpose of integrating deviant NPCs into this, I completely understand the idea to add game mechanics to deviant behavior so that deviant NPCs can be looped in as well.
On the other hand, I still believe it should be devoid of "traceable" mechanics or documents. The ever-present threat of being betrayed by your mob-boss employer after doing something illegal for him feels cheapened if it involves a "deviant token".
Furthermore, on a meta-game level, I foresee a lot of high-end deviant groups completely bypassing these deviant-tokens or explicit contracts that can have in-game repercussions in favor of the old school method of backroom hand shakes and implicit understandings.
Why add further in-game risk to something already deviant if you can talk with someone over discord, tell them and their association to do something in exchange for later payment, and then wait to hear the results? Why involve any "paper trail" or in-game threat of deviant NPC retaliation?
If the deviant group double-crosses their deviant employer, the employer knows never to use them again and spreads word to all their syndicate friends to not trust them, and now the deviant group is hunted and distrusted by the only people willing to employ them.
No contract needed.
Yep, exactly Vucar - that's pretty much why it's a thing we've discussed here, but not really done anything with, yet. The idea does solve a problem (NPC deviants involved in organized crime), but if it's not likely to be used due to playstyle, there's not really a compelling reason to spend time on it.
Posted By Deftly at 07:57 AM - Thu Feb 22 2018
I'm sure someone would create some type of crime syndicate that would handle anything dealings that come with deviant contracts. The only way I see crime surviving long term is if criminals take the time to get organized..
people already are
Cloak & Veil [Disguise Guild]
https://discord.gg/hqWUfeW
Posted By Vucar at 2:47 PM - Wed Feb 21 2018
If the deviant group double-crosses their deviant employer, the employer knows never to use them again and spreads word to all their syndicate friends to not trust them, and now the deviant group is hunted and distrusted by the only people willing to employ them.
No contract needed.
Precisely. If you are betraying thieves and assassins or those that work with them then then there are likely to be consequences.
However contracts may well be useful. if for example if there was a clause that allowed us to relinquish the value from your person or property if the contract is unfullfilled. Then its a legal document allowing us to legally mug you and or steal from your house up to the value we're owed.
Cloak & Veil [Disguise Guild]
https://discord.gg/hqWUfeW
Posted By Snipehunter at 12:53 PM - Thu Feb 22 2018
Yep, exactly Vucar - that's pretty much why it's a thing we've discussed here, but not really done anything with, yet. The idea does solve a problem (NPC deviants involved in organized crime), but if it's not likely to be used due to playstyle, there's not really a compelling reason to spend time on it.
I agree that the need for a deviant-specific contract mechanic might not be necessary, as long as the existing contract system can encompass all of the same needs.
The only reason I dislike the idea of "if someone breaks an agreement, then it will be handled by the players" is because then it starts to feel like cheap sandbox content where it is thrown out there as a possibility, but only circumstantially supported by the game (instead of mechanically supported, like the regular contract system). Of course, that is how I feel about it based on experience with past MMOs and in hindsight doesn't really apply to CoE because of the persistent OPCs - so probably a non-issue.
As someone said prior, criminals rely on criminal organizations for support. It's not like someone can break an agreement and then retreat to the legal world for safety; they are wanted there too.
Of course you could just have a large group of players, that work together to the same aim, but not register as a guild at all......
Aiming to play on the EU server.
If you live by the sword you will die by the sword.
If you are a UK player based in the Southwest be good to hear from you - we need to form friends now.
Wouldn't the easiest way to get around this be to have infrastructure requirements for all guilds, and just have each governing community/kingdom decide how they want to make or record them?
Clarification: similar to the way that towns, cities, etc. will have requirements of population and certain structures, can't it be the case that groups will the requirements of size, utility, agency, etc? This would allow for varying sizes of organizations that are recognized differently based on infrastructure and agency and it would make the guild system more realistic. After all, unless there is a fascist regime, there isn't really a mandate against people assembling in a single facility they pool their funds to expand and support, all without the mantle of "guild". There would also be no way to track that unless they declared their actions and intent.
Therefore, I feel it should be the job of the system to dole out any rewards or perks due to any group meeting the system requirements of a "guild" rather than having a drop-down menu, GUI click-through dialogue. That should all be reserved for government/group relations for parties that want benefits of declaring with their kingdom - which should have agency over their own interactions with guilds and the guild system based on kingdom agenda.
One other thing to think about is every kingdom and perhaps cities will need/want spies and saboteurs. Guilds could help with this.
A smart kingdom will allow or even support deviant guilds, as long as they don't cause trouble in his own kingdom.
Privateers were a thing.
Posted By Vucar at 11:47 PM - Wed Feb 21 2018
The idea of a "deviant only" contract sounds silly to me. Legally binding the illegal is an oxymoron unto itself.
"Honor among thieves" was a saying because there was no law for the unlawful, except for your word. If your word was bad, you didn't have the law to back you up.
Thus, if someone agrees to do something illegal for someone else, the only enforcement anyone should count on is whether or not violence will come if someone reneges.
this is why drug related violence is so high.
When there's any dispute among criminals, they can't settle it through the legal system, so they can only settle it themselves. And it usually ends in violence and bloodshed.
Count LizenÇace VeLeîjres of Mydra's Crossing, VII of the order of the IX.
Posted By zimmah at 7:05 PM - Wed May 09 2018
A smart kingdom will allow or even support deviant guilds, as long as they don't cause trouble in his own kingdom.
A smart king won't let it be known that he's harbouring deviants. Realistically almost every kingdom will have some loyal deviants who use the deviant skill tree for intelligence work but any king who allows a thieves guild in his lands on the condition they rob his neighbours is at best setting himself up for a casus belli and at worst encouraging a kleptocracy to replace him.
Privateers were a thing.
It is a common misconception to label privateers as criminals. Privateers are legitimate participants in a combat and are bound by the usages of war. Their actions are limited to those legal in war and against a declared enemy of the nation that issued their letter of marque. Privateers are in reality commerce raiders, not pirates and are no more criminal than the U-boat captains of the second world war.
Coming Soon(tm)
I think as long as a public service is being fulfilled, a deviant guild can find a spot to publicly call home.
Neighbor stole your horse? We'll steal it back.
Wife cheated on you? Give us her hat and we'll frame her for something.
Need a corrupt king removed from power? Consider it done.
I think by being public about your organization in its home town would work if you made promises with the local king and guards beforehand. It could be as simple as promising to stay out of politics or performing some freebies for the king. Maybe have an understanding with the guards that if they catch you in the act or can prove it's you then you'll go peacefully for a reduced punishment.
Just because I eviscerate people with rusty spoons for a living doesn't mean I can't be gentlemanly about it.
